World's Largest Dungeon reviewed

[Jim Hague]

Great to see yet more commentary on the WLD up! Everyone that worked on this project really put a lot into it. I'll address, as a contributor, a few specific points. No, I don't work for AEG, I freelance. IMO, YMMV, all that.

*The WLD can certainly take PCs into Epic levels, though we were unable to provide outlines for doing so due to the lack of Epic material in the SRD when the project was completed. A Web supplement is always possible, though...

*Section A takes a lot of flak, and perhaps rightly so - there were some revisions and delays regarding it, and it gives what I think's a bad introduction to the WLD. Still, there's soime excellent bits in there, and you could consider it the price of admission to better things...

 

[hard head]

You can ignore any such rules. They suggest you don't allow wizards for realism reasons, but they give many other suggestions to get around it and remain realistic. And who says you need to be too realistic anyway? You are playing a game in a world where dragons and wizards exist anyway, what's one more minor tweak?

You're right, there are suggestions to work around the restrictions the module presents for wizards, and working with your DM you can establish a very good work-around. But I was disappointed to hear that the difficulties were there to be solved.

The realism sword cuts both ways. The party that I am playing with specifically WANT a wizard in the party so they are able to craft their own magic items as they progress through the great delve.

It is a small difficulty though, it should be a great campaign.

 

[wingsandsword]

Okay, I don't have a copy of WLD, so please forgive me if I'm way off-base with some of these comments.

For Wizards. From what I understand, the fact that they are essentially limited to their 2 spells gained per level is what really hurts them. Why not add some spellbooks to major treasure caches. I already do that in my regular game to introduce spells from sources the PC's might not look at, or that I want them to have access to. Also, what's to stop a Wizard from Teleporting back to town once they get 9th level, taking armloads of treasure back with them, and buying some magic items, or crafting them himself, or scribing spells ect.

For Druids. You admittedly have to be a little more creative, but I know that on the WotC site a while back, in their "Far corners of the world" feature I think they added a lot of subterranean druid spells. The typical PHB/SRD druid is made for a surface environment, especially forest & plains, but there has been plenty of material from WotC and 3rd parties to make an underground/dungeon delving druid workable.

In general. This ultra-huge dungeon doesn't have one settlement in it? All those orcs, goblins and kobolds don't have a small wing of the dungeon they've turned into a small underground city? The elves/dwarves/halflings (if it has every creature in the SRD) don't have some fortified part of the dungeon where they live and try and keep the menaces out? No place for PC's to do spell research and item creation, or to forge new weapons and armor? I guess my use of the "General Downtime" variant for levelling up from the DMG (1 day per level you're rising to of rest/study/training that isn't actively adventuring) really doesn't work with the WLD at all.

Is the WLD just a near-endless progression of rooms with monsters waiting in them for orderly disposal by wandering adventurers? The ultimate hack-fest? Or is there more of an ecology and a fully fleshed out region with a backstory and personality?

 

[Garnfellow]

My copy came today. This. Book. Rocks.

 

[jtone]

For Wizards. From what I understand, the fact that they are essentially limited to their 2 spells gained per level is what really hurts them. Why not add some spellbooks to major treasure caches. I already do that in my regular game to introduce spells from sources the PC's might not look at, or that I want them to have access to.

This would take care of the biggest difficulty for wizards.

Also, what's to stop a Wizard from Teleporting back to town once they get 9th level, taking armloads of treasure back with them, and buying some magic items, or crafting them himself, or scribing spells ect.

The dungeon is a no-teleport zone (for the most part). The whole point of the dungeon is to keep magical creatures from escaping.

In general. This ultra-huge dungeon doesn't have one settlement in it? All those orcs, goblins and kobolds don't have a small wing of the dungeon they've turned into a small underground city? The elves/dwarves/halflings (if it has every creature in the SRD) don't have some fortified part of the dungeon where they live and try and keep the menaces out? No place for PC's to do spell research and item creation, or to forge new weapons and armor? I guess my use of the "General Downtime" variant for levelling up from the DMG (1 day per level you're rising to of rest/study/training that isn't actively adventuring) really doesn't work with the WLD at all.

There are a bunch of empty rooms that could be fortified by the PCs if they want some downtime. There are are few places that might qualify as settlements, but which places are "safe" depends on how your PCs play things and who they're willing to negociate with.

Is the WLD just a near-endless progression of rooms with monsters waiting in them for orderly disposal by wandering adventurers? The ultimate hack-fest? Or is there more of an ecology and a fully fleshed out region with a backstory and personality?

In the preface various possible ideas are given for a "logical" explanation of the dungeon's ecology. If you or your players are concerned with this, you'll probably find a explanation that will work for you.

Every region (A-O) has its own subplot. There's no lack of backstory showing how things have come to this point and also developing possible future developments based on the PCs actions. NPCs are quite detailed.

Most encounters with intelligent creatures have the option of a diplomatic or combat resolution outlined. If PCs really tried and were amazingly smooth talkers, they might be able to make it through the WLD without killing any intelligent creatures. (I wouldn't bet on it, but it might be possible.)

 

[Jim Hague]

In general. This ultra-huge dungeon doesn't have one settlement in it? All those orcs, goblins and kobolds don't have a small wing of the dungeon they've turned into a small underground city? The elves/dwarves/halflings (if it has every creature in the SRD) don't have some fortified part of the dungeon where they live and try and keep the menaces out? No place for PC's to do spell research and item creation, or to forge new weapons and armor? I guess my use of the "General Downtime" variant for levelling up from the DMG (1 day per level you're rising to of rest/study/training that isn't actively adventuring) really doesn't work with the WLD at all.

Region I and M both have extensive settlements for the drow and driders, and several monster ecologies have established themselves in the southern part of I. Region H has an entire elven military outpost centered around an elder treant. H is explicitly there to act as a base of operations for the PCs...assuming they can survive the intrigues, conflicting alliances and hidden menaces that lurk there.

Is the WLD just a near-endless progression of rooms with monsters waiting in them for orderly disposal by wandering adventurers? The ultimate hack-fest? Or is there more of an ecology and a fully fleshed out region with a backstory and personality?

The latter. We specifically set out to create a dungeon that makes sense - it doesn't always work in a product this size, but the effort is there. The monsters aren't randomly placed, the ecologies work together, and there's tons of backstory and personality to explore. It's not an endless progression of 'check for traps/disarm/enter room/kill monster/get swag', I assure you.

 

[devilish]

Can the players leave at any time or are they somehow stuck
there? Couldn't they, say, explore section A, then head back
to town, stock up and then go after B. Then the
wizard could bone up on spells, research, etc.

Or am I missing something here?

 

[hard head]

Hopefully none of this is spoiler stuff, but for caution...

















From what I understand, once you start the dungeon you can't flit back to town to re-supply. You are limited to what you encounter within the dungeon. This can limit wizards because nominally the class feature of wizards that sets them apart from sorcerors is the freedom to choose what spells they add to their spellbooks. A co-operative DM who leaves spellbooks that just happen to have the exact spells that the wizard wants can easily solve this problem.

The reason you can't leave is the "dimensional lock" on the dungeon. You can't teleport in and out of the dungeon, and there may be limits on your ability to teleport within the dungeon. You also can't access extra dimensional spaces, so rope trick, secret chest, shadow walk etc are all out. This prevents the caster making bags of holding, hewards handy haversak, portable holes etc.

This dimensional lock also has the consequence that anything called into the dungeon is trapped like you. All summoned, called, and binded extra dimensional allies can't leave and will eventually turn on you. This makes conjurers a dicey prospect and really hurts the spontaneous summoning druid. (I can just imagine a druid that has just been mauled by a critter saying "But I thought the spell said summon nature's ally?")

Finally IIRC there is a recomendation that, in such a dungeon environment, movement hindering spells are too powerful. The module recommends DM fiat outlawing the use of web in the module. Entangle doesn't really apply because it is mostly a stone environment but that is recommended to be kept out as well. This one is probably the recommendation I have most problem with, but it is up to the DM. I only hope that each group who plays the module either all agree or all disagree with this recomended exercise of rule 0 and that harmony abounds at gaming tables everywhere.

A DM can choose to ignore these recommendations to help make it fun for any wizard or druid players. A sorceror can choose their spells to work around it. The restrictions are also logical and consistent with some of the premises of the dungeon. But as a player who favours wizards, in a party that has asked for a wizard, I felt a little disappointed that the module threw in a couple of obsticles to begin with.

I am approaching the WLD as a player. While my DM was good enought to warn me about all these hiccups, I haven't read any of the module itself. Those who have read it say it rocks hard. In light of these good people's opinions I am looking forward to playing in the WLD, it sounds like overcoming a little wizard pain will be worth it.