Worlds of Design: A Worthy End?

Is combat an end in itself, or is it a means to an end; and is that a worthy end?

Is combat an end in itself, or is it a means to an end; and is that a worthy end?

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

War is not a means to an end, it is the end, whereas politics is merely the hiatus between wars. - Norman Finkelstein

Why Are We Fighting?​

Long-term tabletop gamers may often ask themselves: is combat an end in itself, or is it a means to an end; and is that a worthy end? With many rulesets the answer is more or less built-in: combat is the center of all activity in a category that originated as wargames. But that doesn’t make it an end in itself, and the focus doesn’t mean there is a worthy end.

An answer in games can often be related to lethality in combat. The more lethal combat is for the player characters, the more they’re going to look for non-combat ways to solve their problems. If combat is hardly ever or never lethal, most players will indulge in combat whenever they feel like it.

It’s quite common in Dungeons & Dragons and its variants for combat to be a means to gathering treasure. Combat is a means rather than an end, but is the end a “worthy” one?

Combat to gain experience points (by killing “monsters”) becomes an end as well as a means. Getting experience points isn’t something we think about in the real world. For a warrior, it could be equated to “being successful in life.” Yet we can ask, as a means, is combat for experience points a worthy goal? For the more violently oriented the answer is probably yes, for those less violently oriented the answer will often be no.

Fourth edition D&D combat appeared to be an end in itself because the “strategic” parts of the game were largely stripped away – seemingly leaving combat and little else. Of course, as with most any RPG, the GM could work to restore the non-combat parts of the game if desired.

Are You Worthy?​

The initial question is not solely, end vs means, but also involves a means to a worthy end. This could be posed as a mission-oriented end rather than an essentially selfish end. This is all a matter of motivation.

The “murder-hobo” trope exists for a reason. Killing everything and taking its stuff has a long history in tabletop games, starting with Dungeons & Dragons but not ending there. The original rules certainly didn’t do anything to dissuade those players from believing that combat was the primary solution to every obstacle.

But it doesn’t have to be that way. Treasure-grubbing or XP point chasing are essentially selfish goals. Characters can be soldiers fighting against evil, not the mercenary searching for treasure. Integrity, doing “the right thing,” and other virtues come with it. The soldier is on a mission, a mission that means more than money or XP-grubbing, more than mere mayhem or slaughter.

Yet how many players care whether they behave in a “worthy” manner or have a worthy goal? How many worry about integrity or doing good works? I don’t know nowadays, but insofar as the Chaotic Neutral jerk stereotype exists, I suspect there are still those who play this way.

If it’s just a dungeon crawl, the mercenary and soldier might seem similar at first. This is where setting and story come into play; if there are moral consequences for actions, the distinction between soldier and mercenary becomes clear. It’s what happens after – in town, in the tavern, amongst civilized folk – where the difference comes into sharp relief. Mercenaries who have no tether to society but personal power are just as likely to murder the innkeeper as they are to pay him.

Does this matter? If your game never goes beyond dungeon crawling, maybe not. But for campaigns that want to explore more than just what’s gained at the point of a sword, the nuance can make for more interesting play.

You Turn: What is the purpose of combat in your games?
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

talien

Community Supporter
Two points here, then I must make coffee:
1) in D&D, you lose hit points and it doesn't "feel any different mechanically." I wonder if we can tie that to the gaining/spending wealth problem.
2) A character can have the end goal: become a Lannister, or the richest person around. In that case, finding more and more things to spend money on just defeats the ends. Get Rich was a common player goal (until debt became the new measure of...), so I have to wonder why that doesn't carry over to characters. If a PC's hoard rivals that of the crown, doesn't that buy the power to say, for example, "my party can't go to Reichtenstein because the king's army is in the way? Something about the war? Sigh. I'm going to pay off the knights and lords to move their stupid troops out of the way and stand down. At least long enough for us to travel through."

1) D20 Modern dealt with wealth as a score: https://d20modern.fandom.com/wiki/Wealth This essentially hand waved purchasing each item, and you made a check to see, depending on your wealth score, if you could swing it (and you could fail, depending on the price of the item, which meant the check was higher). This essentially turns wealth into another stat, more in line with a lot of the other aspects of the game.

2) If wealth is the goal, nobles become a challenge. Starting out as a noble with any measure of resources feels like the PC has "cheated" somehow and gotten advantages that all those poor adventurers only dream of. In my one D&D game where I gave my PCs too much gold, one player said "I put a bounty for adventurers to get me a vorpal sword and wait a year. For every month I don't get it, I increase the bounty by another hundred thousand gold." It was nuts but he wasn't wrong ... if the goal is personal wealth and you're rich, why bother adventuring at all? He essentially became a NPC in his own story.

I think what's really lacking isn't wealth at all but mechanical measures of influence; the idea that wealth doesn't just increase your personal reach at the end of a sword, but that it makes you more powerful in many other ways (and thus you'd be willing to spend it in other ways, like gain a noble's favor).
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Nobody is asking anyone to die. Do what you want in your game, ain't nobody coming to kill you.

And really, dying for a game... is a bit hyperbolic, hey what?
And if I took all the RPG books that I own and dump them on the ground, they don't make much of a hill. I mean it would probably impress most ants, but that's about it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Furthermore, "having fun" is a useless goal. It is like saying that a school can fall back on the "learn information" goal, or that an army can fall back on the "win battles" goal. Yes, it is desirable to have fun, to learn, and to win battles. But to make that your actual, stated goal, the plan of action? It is so uselessly unspecific as to actually hamper your ability to achieve the stated end.

This is why it's so infuriating to me how often people come into discussions like this with unhelpful "well fun should be the goal, not [whatever]" arguments. It's the antithesis of productive for both the conversation and for actual design or strategy.
I disagree. Having fun is not a useless goal and is probably the most important goal. Goal =/= approach. The goal is for my players to have fun. I then need to talk to them in order to find out what is fun to them, and then develop various approaches that will enable the goal to be achieved.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The character does the, for example, "treasure-grubbing," but the player decides to do it. So I hope you and I can agree that it's a "PC" question.
At the root of it, though, I the player decided that goal for my PC. In doing so and telling the DM, "My gnome rogue/thief is a treasure-grubbing guy," I've communicated to the DM that at least for this character, I find treasure-grubbing to be fun. Yes it's a goal of the PC, but it also meets the player's goal to have fun.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I disagree. Having fun is not a useless goal and is probably the most important goal. Goal =/= approach. The goal is for my players to have fun. I then need to talk to them in order to find out what is fun to them, and then develop various approaches that will enable the goal to be achieved.
Those are not goals. They are positive results. Conflating results with goals is going to cause huge problems.

Goals ARE approaches. That's...that's literally what they are. Actionable things.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
There is a book that says there are 7 basic plots.

Well each has their own end goal
  1. Overcoming The Monster: Monster Kills as XP Defeat the bad guy.
  2. Voyage And Return: Distance as XP. Get to the area and return.
  3. Rags To Riches: Gold as XP. Get rich.
  4. The Quest. Quests as XP. Aid your side.
  5. Comedy: Milestone as XP. Get to the end of the silliness.
  6. Tragedy: Loss as XP. Cause yours or another's fall.
  7. Rebirth: Change as XP Cause a change in yourself.
That's interesting, but my games always involve multiple plots on that list. Having so many different xp generating methods would cause the PCs to level too quickly, or if I cut back each category, would result in an unsatisfying amount of XP in individual categories.

What I use for my games is individual XP for the monsters and then a chunk quest XP at the conclusion of a significant quest/adventure.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Those are not goals. They are positive results. Conflating results with goals is going to cause huge problems.

Goals ARE approaches. That's...that's literally what they are. Actionable things.
No. Goals are not approaches. Goals are end results. I have a goal to get in shape by the end of 2024. Now I need to develop an approach to get there. I have the goal to make a million dollars by the time I am 30(long gone). Now I need to develop an approach to get there. My goal is to end slavery on Athas. Now I need to develop an approach to get there.

You are conflating goals with approaches, which seems to be the major cause of confusion here.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
2) If wealth is the goal, nobles become a challenge. Starting out as a noble with any measure of resources feels like the PC has "cheated" somehow and gotten advantages that all those poor adventurers only dream of.
Correct, which is why I make people roll for their characters' backgrounds unless they're willing to choose something bland such as sailor or blacksmith or farmer. You don't get to choose anything that'll give you an advantage, but might get lucky and roll into it...or not: if you choose to roll then the roll is binding even if you don't like what you get.

And despite the long odds, I've had noble PCs: 1 reigning monarch, 2 princes* (1st and 2nd in line to their respective thrones), a member of parliament, and a few others I forget. I've also DMed characters who (not always by their own choice!) became nobility during play.

The first character I ever played rolled into nobility; he too was a prince, 1st in line to a throne. Haven't got close since!

* - incredibly, and with me watching, these two princes were rolled up simultaneously by two different players, each at a 2/1000 chance of being noble at all followed by a secondary roll to see what the character's title was (I think the odds of getting prince/princess were something like 8/100 but I forget the exact details now)
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Correct, which is why I make people roll for their characters' backgrounds unless they're willing to choose something bland such as sailor or blacksmith or farmer.
Are we digressing? We're probably digressing. Anyway...
If wealth is the goal (which, given the amount of complaining/discussion I've seen about 5e's monetary system, it isn't) being a noble doesn't have to be a leg up. Look at A Song of Ice and Fire: the crown was broke when Tyrion was the Master of Coin. Shoot, if you control the mint/national bank, you can just keep printing/minting money when you need it - and suffer the ire of those who know your scheme.

I welcome PCs with noble backgrounds because I adhere to the age-old adage: mo' money, mo' problems.
 

Aelryinth

Explorer
IMHO if you look at the incredible amount of effort the designers put into balancing encounters, combat and monsters with characters it is pretty obvious that combat is a very essential paradigm of later editions.

In the early editions nobody really cared that much about unbalanced combat encounters (if some warning was given) because players were much more on their toes and knew to avoid dangerous encounters. Starting with 3e it seems that more and more effort was put in making all encounters "fair combat encounters".
This is very true.
There were numerous xp tables in 1E. Monsters were worth so much.
But the only class-related XP gains were for fighters, who got like 10 xp/hd of foes overcome in combat. The other classes? Theives got double xp for gold, mages got xp for magic items and esp. spellbooks, and everyone got the value of gold.
So, the focus was on wealth. Monster xp rarely, if ever, equaled the gold value of what you recovered, so the gold was more important than the monster. The dragon's hoard was worth ten times or more what the dragon was.
As for spending wealth, that was never the issue, even in later editions. Basically, you just upgrade gear, which is a never ending rabbit hole if you don't want to make a stronghold. But, the point was everyone had a class ability directly related to making a building/starting an organization, so it was assumed that at some time you'd put down roots, build a tower, start a guild, etc.
In 3e, xp is by the encounter and overcoming the encounter, gold is an 'extra'. You can potentially get very high level without making much money at all, which would be VERY difficult to do in 1e, and technically is hard to do in 3e, since treasure is doled out in measure with level.

But of course, 'real world' rules are different than 'let's have some fun and play' rules. It's a very different game when you're skimping after loot and gold and all you have are Class abilities. Those two spells your wizard gains every level become very important when you can't buy spells or find them at all...
 

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