Worldwide Europe - Are People Doing This?

[Particle_Man]

I like Kalamar because it has some multi-cultural stuff, including a pseudo-Africa part.

I also remember "Dieties and Demigods" from 1st edition which explicitly lists entire pantheons of other cultures (including Native American, Chinese and Japanese).

Yet I am not a big fan of the "Completes" version of the Oriental classes. I also think of the monk as mechanically weak (except for the VoP monk). I wouldn't mind an Oriental land where these classes come from, or having them be homegrown. But mechanically they need to be able to compete with the "big 4" core classes.

I also wouldn't mind playing in alternate pseudo-cultures, with one caveat. I am of european stock and don't mind making a "pseudo-Europe" or "pseudo-England" setting because I feel like I can take liberties with my own ancestral culture without offending myself. But there is a worry that I might offend others if I take too many liberties with "pseudo-Orient" and "pseudo-Africa" etc.

I remember one encounter in a monk temple that I described as all red and gold and then one of the players (who was Asian, and had Buddhist parents) looks at me and says "So, you think this is what a temple looks like?" and I quickly responded "I'm not talking real temples, I'm talking *movie* temples!" but still, I can see that there is a possible (pardon the pun) bull in a China shop syndrome here where making up a setting as a publisher could offend people, so it would be less stressful all around to publish pseudo-Europe (for which people accept that the game takes extreme liberties with historical fact), or something so different that it cannot be identified with any earth culture.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Something that should also be mentioned is that unarmed combat techniques isn't out of place in a Eurocentric setting. The ARMA has numerous fight books demonstrating teaching of various techniques that would suit a monk. Throws, strikes, grapples are all part of a knights teaching. Granted, the ki stuff isn't - that's pure Asian flavour, but, switch it out for holy flavour and give monks a diety. Poof, instant monk that fits into any setting.

I think the most recent Dragon has some ideas for divine Monks which I thought were quite cool: like you said, alternate some of the flavour and remove words like "ki" and suddenly you have a class a whole lot of Monk-haters could probably find time for.

Look- its not that we hate monks- we hate that ASIAN-themed monks have been shoehorned into a Eurocentric setting, especially when you consider that there is the very Eurocentric archetype of the Western themed monk that has been ignored.

OK- they weren't reknown as combatants (with the exception of the fictional Friar Tuck)- but they were scholars. They could, in game terms, become a skill-heavy class, overlapping with the Rogue & Bard, with elements of the Mage and Cleric (in terms of skill selection). They could be diplomats, loremasters, and physicians with a high level of Alchemy, Healing and Herbalism.

 

[Particle_Man]

OK- they weren't reknown as combatants (with the exception of the fictional Friar Tuck)- but they were scholars. They could, in game terms, become a skill-heavy class, overlapping with the Rogue & Bard, with elements of the Mage and Cleric (in terms of skill selection). They could be diplomats, loremasters, and physicians with a high level of Alchemy, Healing and Herbalism.

Sounds like an Expert.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sort of, except their abilities would be a bit more über, reflected in bonuses to certain skill, or even class-specific uses of those skills.

For instance, they'd be able to dredge up things with their lore skills that only a bard might approximate, or heal things with their purely non-magical abilities that other classes couldn't (much like only Rogues and Scouts can disable traps over a certain DC).

I don't have the search function, nor the current time to delve through my subscriptions, but SOMEBODY had a Euro-monk base class on these boards that wasn't bad. Of course, it may not have survived the Great Kerfluffle that scoured ENWorld some months ago. The thread discusses things like their roles as educators, scribes, missionaries, diplomats, farmers, cheesemakers, vinters, brewmasters, alchemists, scientists, artists, and even spies or the occasional warrior.

The archetypes are out there- Friar Tuck and Brother Cadfael, to name but two, or the entire cast of Name of the Rose, but William of Baskerville in particular. One might also consider Terry Brooks' Cogline (a "failed" Druid in the Shanarra books) to be a variant on this theme. The historical Cardinal Richelieu (a Cistercian monk), was something of a swordsman, a patron of the arts, and a diplomat. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Richelieu).

 

[genshou]

Sounds like an Expert.

Exactly what I've been saying.

People, let's not make the same mistake with European monks that many do with samurai, ninja, and foreign swords. One monk most likely isn't going to be uber at anything compared to an adventurer of equal level. None of them will be grand masters at every possible skill any monk may have ever had. Skill Focus and max ranks in four or five skills is already extremely specialized for someone who isn't an adventurer. For heroic monks, a heroic class would be useful, but not for all the ordinary monks.

 

[genshou]

I also wouldn't mind playing in alternate pseudo-cultures, with one caveat. I am of european stock and don't mind making a "pseudo-Europe" or "pseudo-England" setting because I feel like I can take liberties with my own ancestral culture without offending myself. But there is a worry that I might offend others if I take too many liberties with "pseudo-Orient" and "pseudo-Africa" etc.

I remember one encounter in a monk temple that I described as all red and gold and then one of the players (who was Asian, and had Buddhist parents) looks at me and says "So, you think this is what a temple looks like?" and I quickly responded "I'm not talking real temples, I'm talking *movie* temples!" but still, I can see that there is a possible (pardon the pun) bull in a China shop syndrome here where making up a setting as a publisher could offend people, so it would be less stressful all around to publish pseudo-Europe (for which people accept that the game takes extreme liberties with historical fact), or something so different that it cannot be identified with any earth culture.

No fun when players know more than you and interrupt your descriptions with nitpicks, aye? You can always use the DM Escape Plan #4: "That's not how it works in my setting." They can't argue with you over that!

Good stuff, still. Let's get to page 4 now!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

None of them will be grand masters at every possible skill any monk may have ever had. Skill Focus and max ranks in four or five skills is already extremely specialized for someone who isn't an adventurer. For heroic monks, a heroic class would be useful, but not for all the ordinary monks.

Fair enough, just like no Fighter will be grand masters of every possible weapon any warrior might have used.

In all honesty, the monks I personally know (FYI- those at the Cistercian Monestary and Domincan Priory in Irving, Tx, just off of highway 114) are impressively skilled people.

1) Most of those Cistercians (those who founded the monestary in the 1960s) speak/spoke more than 6 languages...besides Latin and their native Hungarian. They were also expected to teach at least a few classes, either at their high school or at the University of Dallas across the street. One of them was an artist of international reputation. Another a professional-level cellist and music tutor. I'm pretty sure at least one of them was a fencer.

2) Among the Dominicans was one who would strongly resemble a mad scientist, tinker gnome or perhaps an Artificer. He didn't buy home electronics for the Priory- he built them, McGuyver style. Ever seen a reel-to-reel VCR hooked up to a homemade television? This same man also taught collegiate level biology.

Basically, we're talking about people whose knowledge was both broad based and, in certain fields, quite deep.

And I'm not so sure I would call any one of them "heroic"- I know too many of them!

 

[Zapak Vim]

Sounds like an Expert.

I'd make them similiar to an expert (lots of skills etc) but adding in some divine feats to reflect the fact that they are religious

so a really basic expert monk (based on medieval Xtian monks) would be an expert with skills in knowledge, craft etc, but with feats from complete divine (sorry havent got it in front of me so cant give examples). Some expert monks would go the whole way and take levels in cleric as well, but most wouldnt . just like in medieval times, most monks were not ordained priests.

or you could design a whole new class with lots of relevant skills and a few religious class abilities (turn the undead, detect evil, bless 1/day etc. maybe some cleric spells at higher levels). So it would be a religious character class but quite unlike a cleric, having skills instead of spells

Zapak

 

[Nyaricus]

I, for one, hope fervently that Fourth Edition, when it comes, changes this. More freedom, less blind assumptions.

Really? Why do you say this? D&D isn't GURPGS, it isn't trying to give something for everyone. It's about taking down a big honkin' color-coded lizard with a greataxe or fireball and then picking through the hoard once you are done.

D&D is euro-centric, for good or ill. I have no qualms about it branching off, please do not get me wrong, but it has a baseline it sticks too, and does so reasonably well. I just wish that supplementary additions would get in their proper place, monk included.

 

[Sidekick]

Well for me I don't play up the asian elements for one simple reason.

Samurai and ninja fanboi's.

For example I DM eberron. While the PCs have not yet made contact with either I've based some Riedran cultural attitudes on Japanese/Chinese traditions (or at least my impression).

Also the Valenar are slightly Persian (as are the scratch farmers they 'liberated'). I mean they already all wear Hijab-like spirit masks. Why not.

I try not to make it explicit though as that means someone wants to play a samurai, or a ninja.

And those base (& PrC) classes are not-allowed in my campaigns (nor are wu-jen).

I like the feel, the flavours, the fashion, the architecture, the cultures, just not the baggage that geos with incoporating it into your world.

That's all