Turjan said:
He specifically said "american offerings I've seen", which doesn't sound like a generalization but like a singular personal experience.
Yes, which is why I replied that I may have misinterpreted. Thank you for pointing it out to me again.
I've noticed a trend on these forums for certain people to respond with immediate and fervent hate to any possibility of cultural influences outside of Europe appearing in their D&D worlds, especially if those influences are Oriental. I have been exposed to Oriental culture more than most Enworlders living in the United States, but I think even without that bias I would still like a little cultural diversity in my campaign settings.
I agree with the first part of the statement, which is why I compared it to the Ire and passion which the ever on-going psionics debate wages.
However the second bit offers another presumption, also from the start of thread, and was another reason for my initial posting and comments related to "american gamers", and another root source of my possible mis-interpretation. (Hence why I asked for a clarification of the discourse).
If your talking about Enworlders, your typically talking about gamers are you not? It is the D&D/D20 reviews site correct? If your talking about Enworlders living in the United States you are then talking about American Gamers, thus I wasn't the first one nor the second one to bring it up. It got brought up in the first two posts. If we make it a point of singling out where the gamers come from, we could easily have a whole new can of worms. I don't believe this was Genshou's intent, which is again why I asked for some clarification.
I guess I was wondering what the heck this following bit was really all about?
"I have been
exposed to Oriental culture more than most Enworlders living in the United States, but I think even without that bias I would still like a little cultural diversity in my campaign settings."
Maybe we are all doing a little mis-interpreting here! That happens a lot when you aren't discoursing face to face. Something I try to remember!
Turjan said:
I can only talk about hearsay, because I never read the Mesopotamia product myself, but I heard that the product is very low on specific mesopotamian flavor and more a general desert setting book. If this was true, it wouldn't really fit the discussion.
Seems like exactly the same snafu I just found myself caught in eh? I possibly misinterpreted and called into question what I saw was a line of reasoning. I fess up to my possible misinterpretation, ask for explanation, and you remind me of it again. Fair enough.
Equally you interpret a product I mentioned based on heresay, which can be quite a slippery slope, but I'll let it go and stick with the assumptions you've made based on what you heard.
I agree that certainly some would absolutely classify Mesopotamia as very low on specific mesopotamian flavor and more a general desert setting book. How they drew the conclusion is theirs to debate, since they must have actually read it themselves.
Plenty who actually have
read it did not find this to be the case. Having personally read it through draft and final print I found it an enjoyable mix of myth, setting, and High adventure without coming across as a dry college text book detailing mesopotamian culture. If that is what someone wanted out of the product, then no doubt their view upon reading it would have been one of dissapointment. Be that as it may, the product contained rather full chapters of Mesopotamian deities, and monsters of the ancient near east statted as they would be should they exist in an active RPG setting.
It also contained a series of challenging and interesting adventures in a mesopotamian setting. An adventure that assumes mythological charactaristics of mesopotamian flavored culture are "real". That its "god kings" wield supernatural power, and that the demons and mythological gods are a part of this fantastic genre of high adventure which is decidedly NOT of a Eurocentric mold. Due to that I argue that it indeed DOES fit the discussion which has as a stated question for dialogue. It does not however include an emphasis on ninjas or samurai, wu jen sorcery or things typically associated with the far east.
What I'm wondering is if this is an indication such people develop a Worldwide Europe setting, with no room for other cultures to actually make the world realistic and interesting. Discuss!
Thus going back to the root of the thread, such people who use Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia or Necropolis for example are definitely using material that is not tied to a Worldwide Europe Setting, and offering their game group experiences outside of normal Midieval fare.
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
These have been part of DnD for a long time, long enough for their origins to fade. Just because the mummy is Egyptian-flavored doesn't mean it always gets presented that way. You can find completely un-Eqyptian mummies in adventures. Meanwhile, things like the samurai are so drenched in Oriental flavor that it's nearly impossible to separate the samurai from that flavor (if some people in a gaming group don't like the flavor). This is a bit ironic, as in game terms there doesn't need to be much difference between a samurai or a knight concept.
Disagree with the fading of origins. Look no further than the rap on weather Ogre Magi should be more oni like or less oni like in other threads to show that people do still look up the origins of critters and seek flavor from their original concepts for their games. Some most strongly!
I Totally 100% agree with un-egyptian mummies, and that samurai work just as well as knights or paladins with oriental flavoring attached, as do many of the other core character classes when run in any other than midieval europe themed game.
For example, a recent game being run here in my home town features a mongol styled game where core classes are all slightly changed to reflect a mongolian conquest of ancient china. Druids are based on central and west asian witches. They dont have animal companions but do gain the ability to enchant flying brooms. Barbarians don't have fast movement but do have the Ride Feat. Paladins can be any lawful alignment, those that pursue evil gain the attributes detailed under the blackguard description. Sounded very cool, but its run at a time of day where I unfortunately cannot participate. A rogue with a bit of tweaking makes a decent ninja.
I admit that don't remember if Nayambe had european influences. I want to say that it depended on the region and quasi historical time frame you wished to run the campaign. If you ran it as "explorers to an unknown continent" then the answer was yes... you are the european style influence. All I really remember before I loaned my copy out (never to be seen again) is that it was full of a lot of really cool information on tribes, gods, and had tons of demons, monsters, animals and weapons. It seemed well researched and very well put together.
Necropolis had character classes and prestige classes that were designed for a purely egyptian/north african feel, changes to cleric classes reflected by egyptian deities, but was not restricted to playing them exactly that way. If you wanted to play the standard explorer sets, adventuring in a foreign land, that was as appropriate as playing with egyptian styled characters.
Exalted has its "own" time/world/mythology. In my opinion It doesn't rely on any actual historical setting other than its own quasi oriental anime feel anymore than Tekumel or the Avatar cartoon. Uh Oh! I mentioned my opinion Hahaha! I should be more careful of that! LOL
It's a pretty diverse and interesting game tho, and well worth checking out for yourself rather than relying on here-say!
All in good fun!
Case
