Worst 3.5 publishers?
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
For Pete's sake, she was just saying that the glut of things produced three years after 2e was hardly crap....
So it's not quality vs. quantity.....aparently, those books had a GOOD chunk of quality, dispite being mass-produced. Those books weren't suffering from a lack of quality. Certainly, no more than the current small-scale production is.
I mean, edition wars all you want, but they ALL had a lot of good ideas, regardless of how flooded the market got. That's one of the hallmarks of this industry. Even absolutely lousy books have good parts. And some might say that recently, the lousy/good ratio has dropped due to the focus on mechanics (which are harder to get good than fluff).
So it's not quality vs. quantity.....aparently, those books had a GOOD chunk of quality, dispite being mass-produced. Those books weren't suffering from a lack of quality. Certainly, no more than the current small-scale production is.
I mean, edition wars all you want, but they ALL had a lot of good ideas, regardless of how flooded the market got. That's one of the hallmarks of this industry. Even absolutely lousy books have good parts. And some might say that recently, the lousy/good ratio has dropped due to the focus on mechanics (which are harder to get good than fluff).
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Ghostwind
First Post
Now that everyone is through apologizing right and left and we are all back on topic, it's time to make people unhappy again by pointing fingers. Given the material I see and read, there is no single publisher that deserves the 'worst' award because everyone has problems here and there with every release. No one can get it absolutely 100% right to perfection. From design to writing to editing to layout to printer gaffes, something always crops up. But that is the nature of publishing.
Having said that, there are a few publishers that do seem to have stumbled more than others in the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5, specifically AEG (their latest release Guilds is for 3.0), Mongoose (City of the Drow uses 3.0 stat blocks), Fast Forward (still haven't made that 3.5 skill conversion yet), and Larry Elmore's company (Woman of the Woods was entirely 3.0 but released at Gen Con at the same time as 3.5). To be fair, nearly every publisher still has an occassional conversion error crop up because an editor missed it or such. Nine times out of ten, it is usually confined to a skill, feat or mathematics error due to changes in skill points.
Someone mentioned earlier about worst publishers being those with bad, improper, or completely mucked Open Game Content designations. I certainly sympathize/agree with them but I also recognize that Joe Gamer doesn't give a whit about what's open for use and what's not. As a designer, OGC does matter to me, and publishers who go out of their way to be vague, be overly protective, or just plain don't understand the requirements of the license, don't rank as highly as those who do. The worst offenders that I have seen in this regard are Fast Forward and Malhavoc. Both have declared common words or generic phrases such as "Dragon Bay", "Amber Sea", "Mirror of Vanity", and "Helm of Flame" to be product identity in one form or another. Other publishers like Sword & Sorcery, Goodman Games, Mongoose (to a certain extent), and Fast Forward (The Book of All Spells declares spell names to be PI even though they are using the Open Game Content of other publishers, effectively trying to close something that is already OCG) go the route of only allowing the actual game mechanics to be Open Content and protect the names of the spells, monsters, feats, skills, etc.
One of the facets of the OGL is the elimination of the need for re-inventing the wheel with every release. If more publishers were more willing to be as clear and open with their designations (i.e. getting it right and making it easy to understand) as Atlas Games, Bad Axe Games, Bastion Press, Fantasy Flight, and Green Ronin are, it is possible you could see a lesser proliferation of feats, skills, etc. and even a tighter cohesiveness between the works of different publishers. But then again, when you consider the ego of the average gamer/designer who likes to build the better mousetrap, nothing would likely change regardless.
Having said that, there are a few publishers that do seem to have stumbled more than others in the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5, specifically AEG (their latest release Guilds is for 3.0), Mongoose (City of the Drow uses 3.0 stat blocks), Fast Forward (still haven't made that 3.5 skill conversion yet), and Larry Elmore's company (Woman of the Woods was entirely 3.0 but released at Gen Con at the same time as 3.5). To be fair, nearly every publisher still has an occassional conversion error crop up because an editor missed it or such. Nine times out of ten, it is usually confined to a skill, feat or mathematics error due to changes in skill points.
Someone mentioned earlier about worst publishers being those with bad, improper, or completely mucked Open Game Content designations. I certainly sympathize/agree with them but I also recognize that Joe Gamer doesn't give a whit about what's open for use and what's not. As a designer, OGC does matter to me, and publishers who go out of their way to be vague, be overly protective, or just plain don't understand the requirements of the license, don't rank as highly as those who do. The worst offenders that I have seen in this regard are Fast Forward and Malhavoc. Both have declared common words or generic phrases such as "Dragon Bay", "Amber Sea", "Mirror of Vanity", and "Helm of Flame" to be product identity in one form or another. Other publishers like Sword & Sorcery, Goodman Games, Mongoose (to a certain extent), and Fast Forward (The Book of All Spells declares spell names to be PI even though they are using the Open Game Content of other publishers, effectively trying to close something that is already OCG) go the route of only allowing the actual game mechanics to be Open Content and protect the names of the spells, monsters, feats, skills, etc.
One of the facets of the OGL is the elimination of the need for re-inventing the wheel with every release. If more publishers were more willing to be as clear and open with their designations (i.e. getting it right and making it easy to understand) as Atlas Games, Bad Axe Games, Bastion Press, Fantasy Flight, and Green Ronin are, it is possible you could see a lesser proliferation of feats, skills, etc. and even a tighter cohesiveness between the works of different publishers. But then again, when you consider the ego of the average gamer/designer who likes to build the better mousetrap, nothing would likely change regardless.
I'm in the same boat as Derulbaskul. I have 6 mongoose books and wasn't that happy with them. They were from the older days (Highthrone, Constructs, etc). They weren't horrible (a couple were) but just weren't good enough, so i stopped getting mongoose. These days a D20 company has one or two shots at making me happy and then they are done.
Sword & Sorcery material is always a good read, but i don't trust their game mechanics as far as i can throw them.
I've had two different FFG products fall apart on me (and the Midnight book did it twice - one of them was a replacement ffg sent me!! I didn't even bother sending for a third one), so they are absolutely done. Their horizon books are still a go though (redline was great), but no more big books/hardcovers from them will get my cash.
I have had a pretty decent love/hate thing going on with WOTC since 3E came out, but lately i have liked their stuff (BOVD, BOED, Complete Warrior, Arms & Equipment guide). There is no way in hell they are getting more money from me for corebooks. Especially since i like maybe half of their changes (they can keep their spells changes now and forever - the couple spells i had a problem with i changed, they didn't need to go off the deep end like they did).
AS usual, these are just mho. I wouldn't normally add that, but given the sniping going on, i wanted to cover my @ss.
Sword & Sorcery material is always a good read, but i don't trust their game mechanics as far as i can throw them.
I've had two different FFG products fall apart on me (and the Midnight book did it twice - one of them was a replacement ffg sent me!! I didn't even bother sending for a third one), so they are absolutely done. Their horizon books are still a go though (redline was great), but no more big books/hardcovers from them will get my cash.
I have had a pretty decent love/hate thing going on with WOTC since 3E came out, but lately i have liked their stuff (BOVD, BOED, Complete Warrior, Arms & Equipment guide). There is no way in hell they are getting more money from me for corebooks. Especially since i like maybe half of their changes (they can keep their spells changes now and forever - the couple spells i had a problem with i changed, they didn't need to go off the deep end like they did).
AS usual, these are just mho. I wouldn't normally add that, but given the sniping going on, i wanted to cover my @ss.
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Emiricol
Registered User
Just to stick up for FFG, though Midnight did fall apart, they did replace it no questions asked. They also made it clear they have stopped doing business with the company that produced the crappy books.
So, while I understand the frustration, it is good to present both sides of things.
So, while I understand the frustration, it is good to present both sides of things.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
FFG has a mixed track record for me. I adore DragonStar, but I recently baught Sorcery & Steam, and found it had some pretty glaring balance holes in it....
johnsemlak
First Post
Psion
Adventurer
Gothmog said:
Do you care to expound/support your assertions here? I thought Draconomicon was great. I thumbed through classic play dragons today at the book store and it actually seemed pretty interesting... but after having been bitten by two mongoose books recently that seemed pretty interesting on first blush, I'm a little leery. Could you give more info on what you think makes it great?
TIA for any info.
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