EugeneZ
First Post
But the adventure specifically says she's in "monstrous serpentine form" after the song is used on her.
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WotBS WotBS #5 - Dumb NPCs
- Thread starter Imban
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But the adventure specifically says she's in "monstrous serpentine form" after the song is used on her.
Sorry, you've lost me. We're talking about the "Audience with the King", where she's a gnome? I can't see any verbiage to that effect there (although if it is erroneously there, please let us know so that we can update the text! Or are you refering to a reference elsewhere in the adventure which could use some verbiage changes?)
Honestly, run it however works for you! I'm not trying to persuade you of anything - these modules are intended for DMs who are happy to take it and run! But if you've spotted an error, please let us know where it is so we can fix it!
EugeneZ
First Post
Sorry, you've lost me. We're talking about the "Audience with the King", where she's a gnome? I can't see any verbiage to that effect there (although if it is erroneously there, please let us know so that we can update the text! Or are you refering to a reference elsewhere in the adventure which could use some verbiage changes?)
Honestly, run it however works for you! I'm not trying to persuade you of anything - these modules are intended for DMs who are happy to take it and run! But if you've spotted an error, please let us know where it is so we can fix it!
Yep, my only intention is to correct any errors, for the PDF or perhaps only for those reading. I'm definitely happy with the way I ran things.
I quoted the relevant passage in my earlier post. It's from page 105, the "Tactics" section of "Get Malkan!". Here it is again:
The Mad King's Banquet said:
She's insubstantial and in gnome form in that encounter and does not take on a substantial form. If the heroes sing the Song of Forms (which makes her substantial), she flees in a panic.
I think the issue is that the sentence is slightly unclear. If adding "...switching to serpentine form..." in between "panic" and "terrifying" solves the whole issue with the adventure, then we can by all means slip those words in.
Is that why people are circumventing the whole adventure? Because they read that later encounter, made the same inference you did, and applied that back to the beginning of the adventure. Would adding those four words on page 105 stop that?
I think the issue is that the sentence is slightly unclear. If adding "...switching to serpentine form..." in between "panic" and "terrifying" solves the whole issue with the adventure, then we can by all means slip those words in.
Is that why people are circumventing the whole adventure? Because they read that later encounter, made the same inference you did, and applied that back to the beginning of the adventure. Would adding those four words on page 105 stop that?
EugeneZ
First Post
I have no idea why people are doing it. I'm just confused as to the intent of the interaction between the Song and Madness. I definitely didn't get that impression from that one sentence alone. And, besides, Imban didn't say what effect he thought the Song had on her. Neither did RW. Before your post, I had just assumed they interpretted it the same way I did. Now that's all been thrown under a great deal of doubt and I am trying to figure out why.
That sentence was the best example I can find, and your correction only confuses me further. If the Song seals her into a substantial shape, then why would she flee in serpentine form? Doesn't that sentence mean that the Song reveals her true form?
To be completely honest, at this point, I'm beginning to suspect this very thread is what GAVE me the impression I got. I had read this when it was first posted months ago, at which time we were in the middle of Banquet. I didn't come back to this thread for that, though -- until you made your comment I had forgotten all about it.
Or maybe I just thought it was a clever way for the PCs to take control of the situation, and somehow convinced myself that's what the adventure implied. Hopefully folks will bump into this thread or simply not come to the same conclusion Kaisoku, myself, and possibly the OP did. But if you want to modify the adventure, rather than simply fix that sentence, I would recommend adding an explicit paragraph somewhere that discusses the entire extent of the Song of Forms when used in a calm, gnome-form of Madness. The only explanations the adventure has are for when Madness is dealing with the PCs in unusual circumstances.
That sentence was the best example I can find, and your correction only confuses me further. If the Song seals her into a substantial shape, then why would she flee in serpentine form? Doesn't that sentence mean that the Song reveals her true form?
To be completely honest, at this point, I'm beginning to suspect this very thread is what GAVE me the impression I got. I had read this when it was first posted months ago, at which time we were in the middle of Banquet. I didn't come back to this thread for that, though -- until you made your comment I had forgotten all about it.
Or maybe I just thought it was a clever way for the PCs to take control of the situation, and somehow convinced myself that's what the adventure implied. Hopefully folks will bump into this thread or simply not come to the same conclusion Kaisoku, myself, and possibly the OP did. But if you want to modify the adventure, rather than simply fix that sentence, I would recommend adding an explicit paragraph somewhere that discusses the entire extent of the Song of Forms when used in a calm, gnome-form of Madness. The only explanations the adventure has are for when Madness is dealing with the PCs in unusual circumstances.
Madness is incorporeal while looking like the gnome. This sentence sounds odd, but you have to read Madness' stat block:
So she has to be incorporeal to project the image of the gnome. Otherwise, she's actually just incorporeal and a Huge non-euclidean snake that flickers between dimensions and thus looks like she's got multiple heads (it's actually one snake in more than one spot at the same time... think Cthulu level mind-bending stuff).
The song of forms forces her into corporeal form, which she does by picking up something locally to "possess"... debris, a tent, a tapestry, etc.
So yeah, singing the song will "reveal" her. However her stranglehold on people's minds would allow her to easily convince people that this was a spell attack against her, and not her true form.
If the players had for some reason picked up on the trillith thing early and tried it at the first meeting, I would have had people shush them, and if they managed to successfully get the song out... Madness would just Mislead, run away, and come back to tell the King that it was those "meddling PCs"... agents of Seaquen working with Gallo to undermine him and drive Dassen into the ground.
So she has to be incorporeal to project the image of the gnome. Otherwise, she's actually just incorporeal and a Huge non-euclidean snake that flickers between dimensions and thus looks like she's got multiple heads (it's actually one snake in more than one spot at the same time... think Cthulu level mind-bending stuff).
The song of forms forces her into corporeal form, which she does by picking up something locally to "possess"... debris, a tent, a tapestry, etc.
So yeah, singing the song will "reveal" her. However her stranglehold on people's minds would allow her to easily convince people that this was a spell attack against her, and not her true form.
If the players had for some reason picked up on the trillith thing early and tried it at the first meeting, I would have had people shush them, and if they managed to successfully get the song out... Madness would just Mislead, run away, and come back to tell the King that it was those "meddling PCs"... agents of Seaquen working with Gallo to undermine him and drive Dassen into the ground.
Hey Morrus... just curious. Is there a Nina Glibglammer asleep somewhere?
Reading the description of Madness again, it bears striking resemblance to prisoner zero.
I might have to tweak the adventure's ending a bit...
Reading the description of Madness again, it bears striking resemblance to prisoner zero.
I might have to tweak the adventure's ending a bit...
RangerWickett
Legend
Edit: This is with regard to the original 3.5 version of the trillith. I believe the rules have changed for 4e.
Okay, with hindsight, the trillith were sort of oddly designed. As per my original notes and planning:
They're spirits with incorporeal bodies, and can choose to present an illusory form so they can interact with humanoids. They can also choose to gather nearby material into a body (like a stag of fire, or a serpent of tapestries and cutlery) if they want to fight physically, but any damage to that body can't really kill them.
The only two ways to kill them is to hit them with psychic damage (maybe radiant too; basically anything that has a nonphysical component, and hurts the mind or soul instead of the body), or to use the song (or some similar magic). When affected by the song, their incorporeal bodies become corporeal. They do not gather nearby material, but have actual flesh and blood bodies, albeit with magic powers. You get an actual stag that is on fire, or a real non-euclidean serpent.
So actually yeah, if the PCs bust out with the Song of Forms out of nowhere, by rights she would be forced into serpent shape. And as others have said, she would then flee out of range, and later on blame the PCs for creating a horrifying illusion.
Okay, with hindsight, the trillith were sort of oddly designed. As per my original notes and planning:
They're spirits with incorporeal bodies, and can choose to present an illusory form so they can interact with humanoids. They can also choose to gather nearby material into a body (like a stag of fire, or a serpent of tapestries and cutlery) if they want to fight physically, but any damage to that body can't really kill them.
The only two ways to kill them is to hit them with psychic damage (maybe radiant too; basically anything that has a nonphysical component, and hurts the mind or soul instead of the body), or to use the song (or some similar magic). When affected by the song, their incorporeal bodies become corporeal. They do not gather nearby material, but have actual flesh and blood bodies, albeit with magic powers. You get an actual stag that is on fire, or a real non-euclidean serpent.
So actually yeah, if the PCs bust out with the Song of Forms out of nowhere, by rights she would be forced into serpent shape. And as others have said, she would then flee out of range, and later on blame the PCs for creating a horrifying illusion.
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RangerWickett
Legend
True. I hadn't really paid close attention to the 4e mechanics for trillith, since I wasn't running it.
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