WotC, 3PP and quality level

[CleverNickName]

Say what you will about 3PP books, but the ones that caused the most trouble at my table (balance issues, arguments, etc.) were published by Wizards of the Coast and had the word "Complete" in the title. These books were problematic for two reasons: they had definite power creep to them, and since they were published by WotC, the assumption was that they were canon. Getting rid of those books at the table was like clearing my lawn of dandelions.

 

[Doug McCrae]

WotC, together with Paizo, have the best production values and page layouts and some of the best art. Imo WotC do the best crunch. I greatly preferred WotC monster books, which are mostly about crunch and art, to those of 3PPs, though I thought they also had better concepts too.

In terms of adventures it seems to be pretty even, though WotC didn't produce many in the 3e era. I think most people would place Red Hand of Doom, Return to the ToEE and Forge of Fury up there alongside Burnt Offerings, Banewarrens and Whispering Cairn. And why not? Do Monte Cook and James Jacobs become better or worse writers depending on who's publishing their work? Seems unlikely.

I was impressed by Thunderspire Labyrinth (I didn't get KoS). Excellent production values, solid adventure, dementedly OTT set piece in the Well of Demons section. It wasn't as good as the very best 3pp adventures imo but definitely worth purchasing.

 

[Imaro]

You know, the funny thing about this, is that IMHO WotC put out some of the worst supplements when 3.0 (not 3.5) was released... the class splats, the psionics handbook, etc. What worries me is, now that they've essentially created a new system...we will again see a drop in quality. Already the core rulebooks feel a little shoddy and rushed... but the Dragon and Dungeon mags haven't instilled me with any confidence either. I mean even with the "reduced and easier monster stats" were still seeing numerous errors. I don't want to claim WotC doesn't care... but I would say their quality isn't the greatest at this point.

 

[Voadam]

I have no time to create my own settings and adventures, so I like buying them and adapting them to my own needs (although I hate system conversions). Now I'm a bit worried: if I switch to 4E and WotC becomes my main supplier of books, I think I will notice a quality decrease.

A current downside to 4e is that there is not a lot of setting or adventures designed for the system if you do not want to convert stuff.

For settings I think statless is fine (Scarred lands gazeteer, Pirate's Guide to Freeport, etc.). You want to know god cosmology, kingdom details and politics, group identities (racial, religious, guild, etc.), and some history. Statblocks for NPCs are not essential for this. Converting settings from one system to another is not that tough IMO.

Adventures are a sticking point if you don't want to make up your own or convert old ones but use ones designed for the system you are using.

There are H1, H2, and a few dungeon adventures from WotC. There are a few 3pp ones (adamant entertainment has a 4e rat man one out already that is not under the GSL). Goodman will come out with some soon. Presumably some new companies will enter the market as well.

It will take time for WotC to create more. It will take time for the 3pp publishers willing to make 4e ones to come out with them.

Whether this is enough for your needs depends on how much you game, how quickly you go through modules, and how much the modules offered are to your tastes.

Look back on your 3e experience, think how it would have been to just have WotC modules, Dungeon (under nonpaizo control), Goodman Games, and a few other 3pp publications but no Paizo OGL, Necro, Malhavok, or Green Ronin Adventures.

I don't know where other prolific 3e module writers stand on 4e (AEG [not sure it is still in business], FFG, Monkeygod [no longer doing RPGs], Atlas Games [no longer doing D&D] Troll Lords [doing just C&C?]).

 

[phloog]

for me a big downside of the new world appears to be the modules (even introductory ones) coming from WOTC are coming in at around $25 or more. I'm not going to debate the per-hour entertainment value, I'm just saying that when I started playing you could get hefty modules for under ten bucks....with fewer 4E 3pps, it seems like there will be very little pressure for WOTC to not charge $30 or so for an adventure...and it's possible/likely that this was one of the reasons for the new 3pp hostile attitude.

 

[Filcher]

It looks like the new DCCs are at least $10 cheaper than WotC's adventures.

 

[deadplayer]

IMHO, 3E WotC books had an average quality. Some of them were very good (the FR and Eberron campaign settings, for example), others were professional but boring or uninspiring. The adventures were not that good, either.quote]

Agree!

 

[Greg K]

For the most part, I agree that the best material tended to be from the third parties.
Overall, I didn't think WOTC's generic product line supplements were that great. The books that I did find useful tended to be aimed at the GM (UA, MM2, Fiend Folio, the dedicated monster books (excluding Libris Mortis and FC2), Stormwrack, Heroes of Horror and BoVD) with, imo, FCI and UA being their best books. Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane and Complete Mage were average and had enough material to make them worth buying at half price. A few other books might have a handful of feats and spells and, maybe a couple of PrCs and/or class variants, but I would be luck to find even 5-10 pages or material that I considered worth adding, but not enough to consider worth purchasing the book.

Now 3PP, I find a lot more interesting stuff with several written by WOTC designers whose WOTC products that I did not like. Some of the companies and thier products that come to mind are the following:
- Adamant: Fantasy Occupations, Hot Pursuit, Hot Pursuit: On Foot, Skillfull Stunts
- AEG : Rokugan, Feats, Mercenaries, Toolbox, Wilds
- ENPublishing: the Elements of Magic books
- Expeditious Retreat: the Magical Medeival society books
- Fantasy Flight Games: (edit) Portals and Planes, Wildscape among others
- Green Ronin: Advanced Bestiary, Holy Warrior's Handbook, Psychic's Handbook, Shaman's Handbook, Witch's Handbook, the Freeport books, the Mythic Vista books
- Malhavoc: Beyond Countelss Doorways, Book of Iron Might, Book of Roguish Luck
- Monkey God/ High Moon Media: From Stone to Steel, Frost and Fur
- Mongoose: Quintessential Monk, Quintessential Sorcerer
- Mystic Eye Games: Artificer's Handbook
- Necromancer: Relics and Rituals
- Sean K Reynolds's website: Fewer Absolutes, Alternate rules for recharging staves, Alternate Poison rules
- Silverthorne: Deluxe Book of Templates Revised
- Second World Simulations: Master of Arms

 

[dmccoy1693]

Say what you will about 3PP books, but the ones that caused the most trouble at my table (balance issues, arguments, etc.) were published by Wizards of the Coast and had the word "Complete" in the title. These books were problematic for two reasons: they had definite power creep to them, and since they were published by WotC, the assumption was that they were canon. Getting rid of those books at the table was like clearing my lawn of dandelions.

whole heartedly agree. a single feat that lets spell casters deal area effect damage every round, feats that granted more uses of the feat the more you took from that category, PrCs that were blantently more powerful then the base classes they were intended for, Base classes with full spell casting plus gaining class abilities at ever level, skill tricks. I could go on and on but you get the idea. Complete Warrior is really the only that was even remotely balanced with the PHB and even there was a noticible creep.

 

[catsclaw227]

It looks like the new DCCs are at least $10 cheaper than WotC's adventures.

Do we have some official release dates on the DCCs? And will they be in PDF immediately.

I am also interested in their "Points of Light" supplement. System-neutral and good for homebrewers or home-goulashers.