WotC 4E D&D bloat (was Forked Thread: Pathfinder (PFRPG) bloat)

[catsclaw227]

Maybe the word "bloat" is in some cased being confused with "glut".

The glut of 3e books was enormous. And if you include the PDFs made by 3PPs for 3.x under either the d20 license or the OGL, there were WAAAAY more products after 3 years of 3e than I forsee in the same time time frame for 4e.

My vault of PDF and print junk I bought in the 3.x period is sadly enormous.

I prefer the current number of releases for 4e by 3PP and WOTC over it's 3x counterparts.

 

[catsclaw227]

Don't get me wrong, there were some serious Gems in the 3.x days. Even old titles like Varisa, Bluffside, the Phil Reed "A Dozen.... " PDFs, etc.

But there was some JUUUUUUNK for sure.

 

[outsider]

I don't see what the problem is with having alot of books for a game system, as long as they of good quality. WotC's supplements for 4th edition have been pretty fantastic so far, so I don't see what the complaint is.

 

[Obryn]

I expect I'd see rules bloat right now, if it weren't for a major mitigating factor - organization.

When it comes to RPGs, I'm very sensitive to poor rules organizations. In 3.5, I routinely ran "Three-Book" campaigns - that is, I allowed my players to use the PHB, the DMG, and whatever core setting book we were using. I generally allowed everything else, but I required my players to have a printout of everything non-standard they were using kept with their sheets. That way we didn't need to shuffle around books looking up rules.

(Of course, I used whatever I wanted on the DM side of the screen - you can never have too many monster manuals!)

But, that all changed when I found HeroForge. Suddenly, all the character-creation and character-management rules were in an easy format, everything was printed out, and everything was simple to track. Classes, skills, feats... Absolutely brilliant. I went from being a three-source DM to allowing basically anything a player wanted to try out.

I have a similar attitude with 4e. Thanks to the DDI and especially the Character Builder, all the character management rules are presented well, organized well, and eminently usable.

So, basically, good management tools are like Rolaids for rules bloat.

Now, a possible downside is that I think DDI has become a necessity for my games. At the moment, though, that's a price I'm happy to pay. About the only things I'm sketchy on are some of the Dragon Magazine materials... While I like the options, I am just about sick of feats which modify at-will powers.

-O

 

[ggroy]

How is it going to be any different for retailers now with even just pure WOTC items? After 2-3 years release, a retailer with have what:

3 sets of core players, DM and MM books.

plus what 27 more books of various types-adventure vault, draconmicon, etc..(9 per year)

plus 3 sets of campaign settings- world and player books and any otehr supporting items.

PLUS any sets of adventures they produce.

Thats just WOTC. Thats not even including say what Goodman puts out.

How is that not bloat?

At several FLGS in town, the people running them mentioned they mainly keep several copies of PHB1. Otherwise most of the other books they only keep one or two copies of each book at a time. For example, they may keep two copies of PHB2. Everything else they only keep one copy per title at a time, like the DMG, MM, AV, Power books, modules, etc ...

These particular FLGS are more in the comic book and CCG business, with a few shelves or an aisle dedicated to RPGs.

 

[williamhm]

The way its organized though each individual player will not need too many books. If playing in ebaron you will need the ebaron players guide, or if you want to use things from it. If playing an arcane character phb with your class, arcane power are all you need same for martial and others once the power books are out. Completley different from 3.5 where the books were not organized very well. Also ddi is very very helpful.

 

[Windjammer]

4E is a perfect system for crunch bloat, and WotC' handling of it so far showcases just how capable they are in that region. TONS of new crunch have appeared since 4E's arrival, especially considering the output in DDI (which the "only 9 books a year?" crowd seems oblivious to), and the relative amount of repeating stuff that's there already is miniscule compared to what WotC did during 3.5 when reprinting stuff over and over again was par of the course.

(Interjection: I'm talking about rules elements here. WotC has no problem to reprint 4E flair/fluff-elements several times over. Example: Sigil's description in 4E Manual of Planes, itself a reprint from 3.5 Planar Handbook, is reprinted in the E2 module and for my money they're going to reprint most, if not all of it, in 4E DMG 2 too.)

The genius of 4E bloat is that instead of overshooting the initial (core series 1) mark prematurely with the first series of supplements (3.0, anyone?), this time they go for miniscule increments to generate a product line that's viable for a long time to come. So if you compare some lvl 1 at-wills or daily's for fighters and wizards in PHB 1 with the Power Source splats, you'll see that WotC simply COPIED these entries and added a MINOR goodie. And that's all good, because people will want to get the slightly better version without feeling at any point that they've purchased a broken game element (which they haven't).

That's the first thing. The second thing is that the standardization of class mechanics across the board means that WotC can sell a single mechanical innovation ten times over. If you look at Martial Power, for instance, you'll see a late heroic tier daily that reads "Hit: 2[W]+primary attribute modifier, and: if you've spent all your encounter powers already, you regain one of them". This power reappears for several classes, and I wouldn't be surprised if it reappaers in Arcane Power (which I don't own) and Divine Power (which isn't out yet). This economic variety of bloat is impossible to achieve in a RPG where every class is designed to be a game unto itself.

So there. Beneath the surface a lot of the bloat is really just a very solid exercise in adding very little many times over. And it's brilliant. For anyone fixated on playing a single class - like myself, favouring rogues - it means I can buy one pack of Power Cards each year (PHB 1, Martial Power, Martial Power 2, Martial Power 3...) for my respective class. It's cleverly designed and cleverly packaged.

If, on the other hand, you aren't into one class in particular, and aren't that interested in seeing little goodies added to extant material here or there then this business model isn't doing much for you. But then, I daresay, most RPG supplements out there which are based on such bloat aren't really for you. That's what "core only" games are for, and there's a good many people who enjoy them.

So there. I don't think there's a bloat "problem" with 4E. What's important is knowing what bloat in 4E is and then deciding if that's for you or not. See, I didn't even bother to buy Arcane Vault 1 when I know that the soon-to-be-released Arcane Vault 2 will contain more of the same, except better. And better flair too, probably - magic Item Sets!

 

[ki11erDM]

I'm pretty sure it just means that every book will assume that you have the others.

What? I can't even wrap my head around that statement... how can you possibly arrive at that idea? I always try to see more than one side to an argument but I honestly just don’t see that at all.

And:
Core = can be used in any 4e game without any major changes

Core does not = you must use it in any 4e game

Honestly? Is this that hard to understand?

To OP:
When PH 5 comes out and it has 8 new races and 8 new full classes... then I will get on the bloat band wagon.

 

[ggroy]

Planned Obsolescence

Wonder if WotC has been implicitly pursuing a business strategy of "planned obsolescence" for D&D, in some form or another for 3E/3.5E and now 4E.

Planned obsolescence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Industries famous for planned obsolescence are computer hardware firms, like Intel. It is better for a firm to make their own products obsolete, than it is for one of their competitors to do it for them.

I suppose with all the bloat produced for 3.5E by WotC's proliferation of their own splatbooks, it made 3.5E D&D more and more into a huge mess. Perhaps in effect they were trying to "destroy" 3.5E, to make way for a 4E.

I imagine the easiest way to "destroy" 4E is for WotC to create more and more bloat, until the game is huge mess after 5 or 6 years. By then, it becomes more palatable for a 5E to be introduced.

 

[tmatk]

What? I can't even wrap my head around that statement... how can you possibly arrive at that idea? I always try to see more than one side to an argument but I honestly just don’t see that at all.

...

I think its safe to say that some of the books will assume you have some of the others. Arcane Power, for example, supplements characters in PHB, PHB2, and FRPG.