Pathfinder 1E WotC desperately needs to learn from Paizo and Privateer Press

[Remathilis]

My 2e favorites would probably be Shattered Circle and Return to Tomb of Horrors. 3e: Forge of Fury (a classic dungeon crawl), Sunless Citadel, and Red Hand of Doom.

 

[Dannager]

Lol guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then, cause really those arent reasons at all to me. Again, you can do any of that stuff and have great fluff in the book. Think I cant reskin a monster because it has fluff? Just because inspiration can be found lots of places means it cant be in the MM itself? People who love to create fluff cant do so if there is already fluff there? The only one that holds water with me is the space issue, but if WotC would actually make a book with more than 224 pages then perhaps they could fit more monsters in along with the fluff.

The space reason is really the reason. The rest of the reasons I gave are simply extensions of it. If WotC printed a book larger than 224 pages, it would have a higher price point. Which would be fine, except for the fact that it wouldn't sell. We can debate why that is the case if you'd like, but it's not terribly important. WotC wanted to make a genuinely useful Monster Manual - one that functions like part of a toolkit for DMs. They succeeded. In order to do that, crunch received priority over other things, like lengthy monster descriptions.

Essentially, the designers sat down and discussed what DMs really needed from them. The products we see are the results of those discussions.

 

[AllisterH]

Weird.

I thought Sunless Citadel was the worst of the 3e adventures but I always assumed it was that bad BECAUSE it was the 1st 3e adventure and the designers were still trying to get a feel for it.

 

[Sunderstone]

Weird.

I thought Sunless Citadel was the worst of the 3e adventures but I always assumed it was that bad BECAUSE it was the 1st 3e adventure and the designers were still trying to get a feel for it.

You're free to have your opinion.

I thought it was a great starter module that actually pulled off gradually getting people used to the new rules. The adventure site itself was very "D&D".... small background story and decent dungeon crawl.

Then there's Meepo! Nuff Said!

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Essentially, the designers sat down and discussed what DMs really needed from them. The products we see are the results of those discussions.

Indeed.

People forget that towards the end of 3.5e prestige class and magic item formats started to bloat horribly. The worst offender, IMHO, was Champions of Valor, which spent the better part of two pages discussing the history and legends behind a +3 Evil Outsiderbane bastard sword...and the associated art represents a hammer (don't believe me? p. 63 of CoV, clearly labeled Dornavver).

Now, I do like fluff, and I think that WotC has overcorrected and scoured away too much, but it's easy to go way in the other direction.

Brad

 

[JoeGKushner]

I think it's a natural cycle of fluff and crunch. At times the PrCs have minimal fluff and its noted and then the PrCs had pages of fluff and its noted.

Many of the posters here seem to be long term players. Why would you even want WoTC to reproduce text that's been around for 20+ years in dozens of products? "But I really need to know what orc poo looks like for my ranger!"

I mean seriously, people talking about 1e and 2e products and wanting fluff in 4e to match it? Why? If you're that old of a player, grab those older books or better yet, use the knowledge you've accumulated to do your own thing.

The adventurep aths from Paizo are great, but much like 99.9% of every adventure path I've seen, that's it for the game until that adventure path is run and another one starts. There needs to be more independent adventures with no links to anything that are site based and allow the GM to insert them and run with it. More wilderness encounters that have flow chart styles to allow the GM to easily use it. Things like the various encounters in Open Grave and Dragonomicon, less like Rise of the Runelords or Savage Tide where while you're coming home from one adventure, your home is burning and setting the stage for the very next installment.

 

[Chrono22]

^Including fluff doesn't prevent any of what you've said.
4e adventures are like a generic cracker Good with dip or other additions.
Unlike flavored crackers, in any published adventure the GM can remove/alter/improve unwanted flavor with a modicum of effort. So, why remove the fluff? It assists the GMs who want it, and doesn't impede the GMs that don't want it.

 

[DaveMage]

4e seems to be successful enough.

I don't think WotC needs to change anything.

Just look at Chris Sims' post from when he was layed off. There's D&D 4E and nothing else is close.

They don't have to care. They're (essentially) a monopoly.

 

[Thanlis]

So, why remove the fluff? It assists the GMs who want it, and doesn't impede the GMs that don't want it.

Well, except that's not true. If you put in fluff, people are absolutely going to assume that the fluff is holy writ and refuse to change it. Other people will look at it, say "man, that's not my thing, I don't want this adventure." Other people will look at it and say "why are they spending so much space on fluff?"

 

[Garmorn]

^Including fluff doesn't prevent any of what you've said.
4e adventures are like a generic cracker Good with dip or other additions.
Unlike flavored crackers, in any published adventure the GM can remove/alter/improve unwanted flavor with a modicum of effort. So, why remove the fluff? It assists the GMs who want it, and doesn't impede the GMs that don't want it.

I refuse to buy fluff. I always have to strip it out to match my word. It just wasted money for me. Why would me and others like me want a single market where we have to buy a lot of (for us) wasted paper and ink?

(p.s can't comment on modules - haven't used one in over 25 years. Hate trying)