Pathfinder 1E WotC desperately needs to learn from Paizo and Privateer Press

[Snoweel]

A fair point, although I feel like it would be a lot of work to edit the current Dungeon AP if, for example, you decided to replace all the extra-planar material with something about your PCs.

It's much easier to say, "We're going to run War of the Burning Sky. Here's the PC guide. Make sure you create a character who will be motivated to (A) defend Gate Pass, (B) defeat Ragesia or (C) maintain balance in the world."

-KS

I agree totally.

These fluff heavy APs really do need to be run as-is, which is no criticism; the Paizo APs look awesome and I've tried cannibalising them for my homebrew (but they require far too much work to pull out of Golarion and insert into World-of-Snoweel). Likewise WotBS looks great but it does seem to be setting-specific, as does the very ordinary Scales of War.

So while the H-P-E series of WotC modules are inferior to all these APs as written, I feel they offer more room to make them your own if you're willing to put the effort in, though that does require some creativity and investment from your players.

 

[Shazman]

I too want to say that I've found the 4e fluff for the monsters to be great; the trick is that it's not in the MMs any more. All the fluff books (MotP and Plane Below) I have purchased have been excellent. The monster and location descriptions are oozing with fluff. If what you want is a book with lots of monster descriptions, locations, and characters, you need to look somewhere outside the MM.

Doesn't that mean that the MM's are somewhat incomplete then? The MM's should have the monster's stats as well as lore, tactics, and pictures of the monsters. If I have to buy book X, to get the lore or ecology of monsters from Monster Manual I, that just seems like a tricky way to get me to pay for two books to get all the info that should be in one book. This seems to be standard WotC practice, and I don't really like it. I shouldn't have to buy Open Grave to get the complete info on undead in MMI. That info should already be in MMI. I should only have to buy it if I want more undead monsters, templates, etc. to use in my campaign.

 

[Snoweel]

Doesn't that mean that the MM's are somewhat incomplete then? The MM's should have the monster's stats as well as lore, tactics, and pictures of the monsters. If I have to buy book X, to get the lore or ecology of monsters from Monster Manual I, that just seems like a tricky way to get me to pay for two books to get all the info that should be in one book. This seems to be standard WotC practice, and I don't really like it. I shouldn't have to buy Open Grave to get the complete info on undead in MMI. That info should already be in MMI. I should only have to buy it if I want more undead monsters, templates, etc. to use in my campaign.

Ah, the ol' Book of Unlimited Pages eh?

I remember it well...

 

[Barastrondo]

(edit: whoops, wrong thread)

I admire the adventure path as a campaign model, but I tend to run more what was described (by Piratecat? I forget... cannot attribute properly) as narrow-wide-narrow campaign arcs. Start with some specific hooks and adventures, then let the players pick from many different paths, then move in to a more narrow climax five levels or so down the road. Then repeat, if the campaign's good for another arc.

Things like that are tricky to publish, particularly if players come up with strong adventure hooks on their own. Most adventure paths (and published adventures in general) are also by necessity somewhat generic, which knocks me personally out of the running. My decision to run a Gormenghast-inspired game in which the PCs are guild-clan members in an ancient, massive and mostly empty city cut off from the outside world means I'm on my own for devising adventures.

 

[Shazman]

Ah, the ol' Book of Unlimited Pages eh?

I remember it well...

I understand that it would mean an increased page count or less mosnters, but that's okay by me, if it means better, more evocative monsters. Monsters in 4E are so bland, it's sad.

 

[carmachu]

So, in short. My guess is that WotC's marketing research shows that by far most DM's run their own worlds.

If thats the case, then why Forgotten realms, Ebberron, and now dark sun?

Why release one world a year, as the 4e model seems to be?

 

[malraux]

I understand that it would mean an increased page count or less mosnters, but that's okay by me, if it means better, more evocative monsters. Monsters in 4E are so bland, it's sad.

The real issue I suspect is that the layout style for 4e uses whitespace to give better informational keys. You cannot extend monsters beyond a 2 page spread, as that makes the book less useful in play. Desifying the text makes it harder to read.

I've found that 4e books are sharply divided between books to be used at the table and books to be used away from the table. Rich lore and descriptions strikes me as more of an away from the table sort of thing. Adding that to the MM decreases the primary purpose of the book.

 

[Nikosandros]

I've found that 4e books are sharply divided between books to be used at the table and books to be used away from the table. Rich lore and descriptions strikes me as more of an away from the table sort of thing. Adding that to the MM decreases the primary purpose of the book.

I can see why the MM do not include paragraphs about coming of age rituals among young female trolls in Southern Boringstan, but I'm displeased about the lack of a simple description that could be fit in one or two lines.

 

[malraux]

I can see why the MM do not include paragraphs about coming of age rituals among young female trolls in Southern Boringstan, but I'm displeased about the lack of a simple description that could be fit in one or two lines.

A TROLL EATS ANYTHING THAT MOVES, from grubs to humans, and is rightly feared for its ravenous appetite, feral cunning, and remarkable regenerative power.
Trolls can be trained to serve in military units. Highly adaptable and resilient, they are found just about anywhere and in any climate.
Troll Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful Nature check.
DC 15: Trolls hunt most other living creatures and are unconcerned about the size or numbers of their prey. They regenerate quickly, even after they are “slain.” Their regeneration is so powerful, in fact, that trolls can regrow severed body parts. Only fire or acid can kill a troll, and trolls have a healthy fear of fire and acid for these reasons.
DC 20: Trolls travel in packs and without any migration pattern. They move until they discover an environment rich with prey, at which time they create a lair. Trolls then pillage the area for food until they’ve exhausted the resource. When trolls lair near an outpost or settlement, the result is the same: The trolls hunt until every living creature is devoured.
War trolls are more intelligent than the common troll, having been bred to wield weapons, wear armor, and employ tactics. War trolls typically travel from battle to battle in mercenary bands, selling their services to the highest bidder. War trolls are often fickle in their services, turning on a patron if the other side tempts them with a greater payment.
DC 25: Fell trolls are voracious carnivores that delight in gorging on humanoid prey. One or two such creatures can
easily wipe out an entire village and devour all of its inhabitants in a single night.

There's more than a line or two about trolls in the MM. Unless you mean just a straightforward physical description; I'd argue the picture at least somewhat makes up for that.

 

[Nikosandros]

Yes, I'm talking about physical descriptions. I don't like having to resort just to the pictures.