Pathfinder 1E WotC desperately needs to learn from Paizo and Privateer Press

[Jeff Wilder]

Is there really a correlation between fans of BECMI and 4e fans? Is there a similar correlation between haters of the two?

If so, it's certainly not perfect. I'm a fan of B/E, and definitely not a fan of 4E. (I'm not exactly a hater of 4E, either.)

 

[JeffB]

Is there really a correlation between fans of BECMI and 4e fans? Is there a similar correlation between haters of the two?

No clue about the latter- And I cannot say I'm a big fan of frank' revised sets- but indeed my opinion is that 4E hews closer ot the spirit of Moldvay/Cook/Marsh (BX) and even the LBB D&D than any other version of the game-its very far removed from the the 30 years of AD&D structure and it's "assumed world" up through 2E & 3E. And that is a HUGE reason as to why I love 4E. Its very refreshing to see D&D so open again for the DM.

 

[Hussar]

2 words: Bigger base.

There are more gamers now than ever. Perhaps in that time period, DMs tended to be the more creative (and probably more widely read) types who yearned to world-build and design. (That would at least conform to my personal observations over 30+ years in the hobby, and it seems to accurately describe many, if not all, of the more respected RPG designers.) On average, those DMs probably didn't need much fluff to inspire them- they were looking for critters to conform to their pre-conceived notions about what monsters fit their adventure/campaign ideas.

Naw, don't believe that at all. For one, it's easily true that today's gamers are as well read in fantasty (although likely different fantasy) than yesteryear's gamer. The idea that teens in the 80's were bigger readers than today is something I just don't buy. Given the ENORMOUS amount of fantasy available to today's new GM compared to someone starting in 1982, I highly, highly doubt there is really all that much difference.

Today, you're probably seeing more DMs who are in that position because someone in the group has to do it. There's more need for creative "training wheels" for those DMs to get a feel for the process & responsibility of running a game from the lonesome side of the screen.

Again, totally disagree. The DM who Has To has been a feature of the hobby since day 1 and no more prevalent today than in yesteryear. The big change is the amount of work to run a campaign - much longer stat blocks, much more intricate rulesets.

That said, even though I've been GMing various systems since 1980 or so (about 3 years after finding the hobby), I still think that good, well-written fluff can be a launching pad for the imagination for any DM. An ecology, a personality, a social interaction common a creature may inspire a campaign. It could also trigger a connection to OTHER things in your brain so that you re-write the fluff. That's how I came to design Cyberman/Dalek-esque Warforged into a homebrew.

Of course, ANYTHING that catches the imagination can inspire me to write something for a game- music, art, science. See my sig for my favorite thread: its as full of ideas as a black monolith is full of stars.

Again, like I said, there's always been a divide in the gaming community as to what a game book is for. Is it for reading or using? You can't really have both.

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On ghouls. When did the idea of fear come into the description of ghoul paralysis? 1e? I just looked in the OSRIC book and there's nothing there about how a ghoul paralyzes. Is OSRIC different from the 1e MM?

At the very least, it seems that people were perfectly capable of coming up with their own stuff for years before having it as "canon".

 

[Garmorn]

That said, even though I've been GMing various systems since 1980 or so (about 3 years after finding the hobby), I still think that good, well-written fluff can be a launching pad for the imagination for any DM. An ecology, a personality, a social interaction common a creature may inspire a campaign. It could also trigger a connection to OTHER things in your brain so that you re-write the fluff. That's how I came to design Cyberman/Dalek-esque Warforged into a homebrew.

Of course, ANYTHING that catches the imagination can inspire me to write something for a game- music, art, science. See my sig for my favorite thread: its as full of ideas as a black monolith is full of stars.

Here I will have to say is a big difference in style/approach or maybe it is the old left brain/right brain function argument. Most fluff bores me. I hinders my creation of new adventures and simple wastes my time. I can't listen to music, look at art and become inspired. I am more a system creator. Step 1. what is the society like? 2. Who wants to change/twist/take over? How and why? What does the PC see? What does the average person see/know.

That is how my mind works. Top down general to detail. Inspiration from music? Not me I need a quite room with no interruptions and blank screen or paper.

For us the MM is great. The world books horrible.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Naw, don't believe that at all. For one, it's easily true that today's gamers are as well read in fantasty (although likely different fantasy) than yesteryear's gamer. The idea that teens in the 80's were bigger readers than today is something I just don't buy. Given the ENORMOUS amount of fantasy available to today's new GM compared to someone starting in 1982, I highly, highly doubt there is really all that much difference.

I'm not talking about well read in fantasy, I'm talking about well read in general- RW mythology, religion, philosophy, the Classics...even non-fiction. You can tell by reading their products that Gygax & Crew read a LOT of different things, not just Howard, J.R.R.T., Moorcock & Vance. There are references to the Bible, history, pop-culture, sci-fi and more.

And I'm not singling out gamers- I think that this lack of breadth in reading is societal, and gamers (while better read than average people) just reflect that. I can't cite any actual evidence about modern readership, of course, just personal anecdotes.

When I was in law school, for instance, the fact that I read anything besides the newspaper & textbooks came as a surprise to my classmates. Our profs were much more broadly read, and I often found myself explaining classical references (such as "Sword of Damocles") to classmates in study sessions.

Among the gamers in my overall social group, the only ones who DM are the ones who read more than a few books a year.

Part of that reading/DMing link isn't just about what you read, but also about the patience and time it takes to go through a 700pg novel or a 300pg history book, etc....which translates into the patience for the bookkeeping of the DM's job.

 

[ggroy]

Here I will have to say is a big difference in style/approach or maybe it is the old left brain/right brain function argument. Most fluff bores me. I hinders my creation of new adventures and simple wastes my time. I can't listen to music, look at art and become inspired. I am more a system creator. Step 1. what is the society like? 2. Who wants to change/twist/take over? How and why? What does the PC see? What does the average person see/know.

That is how my mind works. Top down general to detail. Inspiration from music? Not me I need a quite room with no interruptions and blank screen or paper.

For us the MM is great. The world books horrible.

I have the opposite problem. I find crunch the easy part, and a rather mundane not so interesting part of DMing. What I'm not as proficient at, is creating and dealing with fluff.

 

[ggroy]

I'm not talking about well read in fantasy, I'm talking about well read in general- RW mythology, religion, philosophy, the Classics...even non-fiction. You can tell by reading their products that Gygax & Crew read a LOT of different things, not just Howard, J.R.R.T., Moorcock & Vance. There are references to the Bible, history, pop-culture, sci-fi and more.

In principle, a person can be "well read" in one niche while being completely clueless about other areas.

In my case, I'm largely clueless about fantasy and sci-fi type fiction literature in general. Most of the background I've used over the years in my DMing, largely comes from reading a lot of nonfiction stuff.

 

[Shemeska]

Again, like I said, there's always been a divide in the gaming community as to what a game book is for. Is it for reading or using? You can't really have both.

Add another divine apparently, between people who think that books can only be for reading or "using", and those of us who firmly believe we can have it both ways.

 

[Dannager]

Add another divine apparently, between people who think that books can only be for reading or "using", and those of us who firmly believe we can have it both ways.

I believe that writing for "use" involves concise verbage, compartmentalization of important information, and the ability to locate what is relevant at a glance.

I believe that writing for sitting down and reading involves flowing text, connected strings of though, and a series of hooks that prompt you to follow the text to its next topic.

I believe that these two sets of requirements are at odds with one another, and that in the universe of limited resources that is the book publishing world, one has to be able to hammer out priorities.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Add another divine apparently, between people who think that books can only be for reading or "using", and those of us who firmly believe we can have it both ways.

Well, we could have it, but it would seem to add a lot to the price and size of the book.

Maybe Small/cheap----crunch----fluff

Pick any two you like.