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WotC didn't necessarily save D&D

Did WotC save D&D (Gygax's system) or killed and buried it? (multiple choice allowed)


It is like saying that if Henry Ford was alive today then Ford Motors would still be making Model Ts.... The market has changed, the competition has moved forward, and AD&D is like the DC3, the old VW Bug, and the Model T - much loved, but not particularly suitable for today's market.

I don't think comparing a product in the game market to a product in the automotive market is a good comparison. A better comparison could be chess, monopoly, scrabble, etc.

Trying to compare a game like AD&D, which is primarily non-technical, to a product that is primarily technical, such as cars, computers, etc., is an apples and oranges comparison. Technical products tend to move in a clear upward path in terms of quality. Non-technical products, such as movies and books, do not always move in an upward path in terms of overall quality.

For example, just about any car manufactured today is better than a Model-T Ford. Operating systems sold today are better than DOS.

However, are the majority of movies made today better than Casablanca or Gone With the Wind? Are the majority of books published today better than Shakespeare?

AD&D is a non-technical product more similar to books and movies than cars or computers. Just because it's old doesn't automatically mean that newer products are any better.
 

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I don't think comparing a product in the game market to a product in the automotive market is a good comparison. A better comparison could be chess, monopoly, scrabble, etc.

Trying to compare a game like AD&D, which is primarily non-technical, to a product that is primarily technical, such as cars, computers, etc., is an apples and oranges comparison. Technical products tend to move in a clear upward path in terms of quality. Non-technical products, such as movies and books, do not always move in an upward path in terms of overall quality.

For example, just about any car manufactured today is better than a Model-T Ford. Operating systems sold today are better than DOS.

However, are the majority of movies made today better than Casablanca or Gone With the Wind? Are the majority of books published today better than Shakespeare?

AD&D is a non-technical product more similar to books and movies than cars or computers. Just because it's old doesn't automatically mean that newer products are any better.
Except that in many people's opinions, including my own, 3e is better than 2e. It is more similar to comparing computer games than it is to comparing books or movies - there have been improvements in technologies and presentations as well as systems. I still play X-Com: Enemy Unknown, but the engines have gotten better. Scenarios may not have gotten better (which is why I still play X-Com) but the engines have gotten better. And a game system is an engine.

Also, among the examples that I cited was the DC3 - if ever I own an airplane that would be my first choice, old and temperamental or not. :) My preference does not mean that it would be a commercial success in today's market.

And while the DC3 is no longer made the DC line of planes is still hale and strong.

Not an accidental choice.

The Auld Grump, or a Brown Bess musket for that matter....
 

You asked for a quote, so here's a quote from an interview with Adkison:

Athans: You are the man who single-handedly saved Dungeons & Dragons from bankruptcy in 1997—how much of your decision to bring TSR into the WotC family came from just being a fan of the game, and what did you see in the brand from a purely financial standpoint?

1) When the interviewer says "You are the man who single-handedly saved Dungeons & Dragons from bankruptcy", Mr. Adkison doesn't offer any correction, denial, or response of any sort. He may not be the one (in this interview at least) saying that he "saved" D&D, but he doesn't seem to mind that statement being made or that impression being created.

So let's say I'm a fire captain, and that last week I carried a baby out of a burning building.

The interviewer tells me, "You are the man who single-handedly saved the baby."

What should my response be again?

I should correct or deny? Huh? What is the issue here?

Edit: Whatever side you fall on, the OGL allows a ton of people to sell and print stuff for D&D. That's pretty awesome and wouldn't have been the case without WotC. So thank you, Wizards.

Edit, edit: Never mind. Can't believe I'm arguing something on the internet, or that I actually care about changing someone's opinion. I blame the alcohol. Please carry on.
 
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So let's say I'm a fire captain, and that last week I carried a baby out of a burning building.

The interviewer tells me, "You are the man who single-handedly saved the baby."

What should my response be again?

I should correct or deny? Huh? What is the issue here?
There's nothing wrong with saying "It was a team effort. I couldn't have done it without these guys."
 

So let's say I'm a fire captain, and that last week I carried a baby out of a burning building.

The interviewer tells me, "You are the man who single-handedly saved the baby."

What should my response be again?

I should correct or deny? Huh? What is the issue here?

"Saving" D&D isn't nearly as dramatic as saving a baby, but to run with this example....

What if you had help? What if the baby wasn't really in all that much danger? What if the building wasn't really a raging inferno but there was just a small fire on the other side of the building that burned itself out?

If the interviewer credits you with being "the man who single-handedly saved the baby", then you have a responsibility to say something if the reality doesn't measure up to the interviewer's hyperbole. Not saying anything to downplay the interviewer's dramatic statement is essentially like saying "Yes, I'm that hero".

In the Adkison interview, when the interviewer says "You are the man who single-handedly saved Dungeons & Dragons from bankruptcy", then by saying nothing to downplay that statement Adkison is essentially agreeing with him. The interviewer is giving Adkison credit for single-handedly saving D&D and Adkison is taking the credit.
 

In the Adkison interview, when the interviewer says "You are the man who single-handedly saved Dungeons & Dragons from bankruptcy", then by saying nothing to downplay that statement Adkison is essentially agreeing with him. The interviewer is giving Adkison credit for single-handedly saving D&D and Adkison is taking the credit.
Even taking the interview at face value (and you shouldn't: the transcript as-printed could be a very poor representation of the tone of the interview at that point), that is poor evidence to support the claim that WotC have evangelized themselves as the saviors of D&D.

It shouldn't come as any surprise that Adkison's decision to buy TSR was as much (if not more) ruled by his balance sheet as his heart. No matter how much I loved D&D, I wouldn't buy the brand if it threatened to bankrupt me and put me on the street... I'd want a return, and a good one.

Whether or not the deal turned out well for him, it certainly turned out well for us.
 

I find this quote interesting for a couple of reasons:

1) When the interviewer says "You are the man who single-handedly saved Dungeons & Dragons from bankruptcy", Mr. Adkison doesn't offer any correction, denial, or response of any sort. He may not be the one (in this interview at least) saying that he "saved" D&D, but he doesn't seem to mind that statement being made or that impression being created.

Yes, but let us note a couple things:

That interview seems to be from this year (posted March 9, 2011), roughly a decade after he sold WotC. His statements at this time cannot reasonably be taken as "WotC marketing", or any other statement by WotC. What he may feel in his heart as a third party now does not bear on what WotC claims.

Now, I am not personally familiar with the internal business structure of WotC at the time. He was CEO, and I presume he had some Board of Directors to work with. If it was his idea, if he did the financial workups, it he did all the gladhanding and he pushed through the BoD to make it happen, then it is not all that unreasonable for him to take credit.

2) When the interviewer asks him whether he bought TSR because he was a fan or for financial reasons, he responds only from a financial perspective, particularly one about making the company a more attractive takeover target.

I think you mis-characterize what was asked. He wasn't asked "whether he bought it for love or financial reasons". He was asked "...how much of your decision to bring TSR into the WotC family came from just being a fan of the game...?" and he doesn't really answer that question. He instead answers the second part of the question, "...what did you see in the brand from a purely financial standpoint?"

To answer the first part, I give to you an excerpt from an interview with the man from 2002, just after it was announced that he was buying Gen Con (which he'd been attending since 1992):

GamingReport: Do you still game? If so, what games do you regularly play?

Peter Adkison: "Absolutely. I play Magic: The Gathering occasionally. Not enough to be good at building decks, but I make it a point to get the PCDs for each new release and play a few games, especially with my dad who’s a Magic fanatic. But my first and last love is D&D, which is why I bought it back in ’97 and personally led the 3rd Edition design team for 6 months until I felt it was on the right track with Jonathan Tweet at the helm. Currently I’m running two regular games and playing in three. The games I’m running are on a plane that’s quite barbaric but with powerful magic. The "fair races" (humans, dwarves, elves, etc) occupy only about 10-20% of the land, the rest is ruled by equally advanced cultures of other races, like ogres, giants, drow, etc. One of the two groups I’m running is a group of fair race adventures that are so far from civilization that not only have none of them ever been to even a village (much less a city) of their own race, they haven’t even heard of one! The only city they know of is ruled by ogre slavers.

Of the games I’m playing, in one I’m a female human cleric at about 9th level, in another I’m a 3rd level half-orc barbarian sorcerer (he has just one level of sorc so he can use all arcane wands, shield, and expeditious retreat). In the other I’m playing a dwarven rogue-druid; the first command he teaches his animal companions is "flank!" hee hee."


Let me repeat the relevant bit:

"But my first and last love is D&D, which is why I bought it back in ’97..."

So, we can put the interviews together, and get that he bought it because he loved it, but he would not have done so if it were a bad financial move. That sounds less "opportunistic" and more "not stupid" to me.

I think you're misinterpreting positive feelings as "white knight". I don't think anyone here has suggested that he made some horrible personal sacrifice to do it, like a knight would to save a maiden fair. He did, however, take considerable financial and professional risk. At the time, TSR had some pretty ugly financial troubles (and while we the public weren't fully aware of them, Adkison would have known all about them before the purchase). That the purchase would be a financial gain was *not* a given, that 3rd edition would be a winner was by no means assured.

He was in a position most gamers dream of being in, and it led to a resurgence in the hobby - he took a risk, did a lot of work, made something good, and we benefited. Again, I ask, why we should want to think this is other than positive?
 


Heh. it hadn't occurred to me, but anyone with a real beef should be criticizing them for selling out to Hasbro.

Maybe, but there are other sources out here on the net, posted by people reasonably in the know, that say there are good financial reasons for doing so. The answer in the interview says that his job, at least in part, was watching out for the shareholders. A bunch of those shareholders were early employees who had sunk a lot of money into WotC. Selling out to Hasbro was one way of rewarding them for their investment in the company and getting it off the ground.
 

Perhaps an equivalent question might be to ask whether Steve Jobs would have taken credit for saving Apple. There was no doubt that Apple was in a dreadful situation back in 1997, and I'm pretty sure that everyone credits Steve Jobs for saving it, and turning it into a hugely profitable company. In reality he couldn't have done it without the help of many talented people at all levels of the organisation, but that wouldn't make any claim that he saved the company any less real.

Cheers
 

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