WotC is *NOT* Evil: THE FINALE

Wow, wizards shows that they are really trying to please the fans. Nice move of them to even thank you for reminding them to update their kit. ;)

Sometimes an apology is worth much more than complaining over and over again... i guess you earn some xp.
 

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Not to go too far off topic, but to bring it back to an area where everyone might not get so angry, but what Gloomshroud ran into is really a common web design hurdle. You get an idea for a website (in this case, a campaign wiki) and your creative side goes wild...but you aren't a visual artist, so you go around looking for images.

If you were building, say, a web site for your anti-virus software product or your plumbing business then you could either get lucky and find a good Creative Commons image or drop a few bucks at a place like istockphoto to deck out your site.

Unfortunately, licenses for good fantasy art are hard to find. Oh, you can find pretty much any piece of fantasy art you've ever seen on the internet...but the sources of that art violate the artist's copyright and even if you get them right from the artist's official site your use of the images would violate their copyright. You can find some stuff via the legal channels mentioned above but you have to work for it and it will never be as "perfect" as the art Gloomshroud wanted to use.

My advice is to use art is for inspiration, not explanation. There's no shortage of desert photos and drawings legally available on the internet, and there are probably some which fit the tone of Dark Sun. A cool-looking desert landscape photo will give your Obsidian Portal page a bit of Athasian flavor, even if it doesn't depict a Mul warrior and his Thri-Kreen buddy marching across it with their bone weapons.

As for maps, try making your own. There are free and commerically available map-making programs that you could use to create some nice maps of important campaign areas. Granted, just rebuilding the Dark Sun world map from scratch might (IANAL) violate copyright, but homemade maps of your own, original locations are fair game. I don't mean tactical maps, but rather evocative ones, like an ungridded, more artistic map of the site of the party's first battle, or an "architectural" depiction of the party's home base. I think these might be even better than the official stuff because it will remind the players of campaign elements in which they are invested.

I hope those ideas are useful to someone. Now, let's talk about WotC.

Wizards is a small part of a large company that, when you think about it, derives all of its value from its intellectual property. They don't sell a service, and they don't manufacture goods: their product is a collection of ideas and the rights to use those ideas (in print, on the internet, on the silver screen, etc.). Compared to other companies in their situation WotC's business practices are very permissive and, frankly, enlightened.

In the early 2000s WotC pretty much "open sourced" their entire game system (the OGL) and there are still publishers profiting from that intellectual property: WotC created it, tested it, and brought it to market with the name recognition of the largest brand in the industry, and today they're still competing for market share with game designers who use that same IP. Even though the current GSL is nowhere near as permissive as the OGL, it's still a "user-friendly" license that allows third parties to create derivative works which, in most cases, compete directly with some of WotC's own products (e.g, adventures).

Most IP rights holders don't interact with their customers in this way. In the unlikely even that someone wrote a Harry Potter fan fiction that someone would want to buy then J.K. Rowling's attorneys would get an injunction before it ever hit the shelves. Most businesses that derive value from IP are just now warming up to the idea that the occasional YouTube mashup can actually grow their business. WotC has been ahead of the curve in this respect for years.

I can't say with any certainty why this is the case, but it's probably a combination of practical business needs (e.g., the business advantages of less restrictive IP policies are numerous, especially for companies who have so few customers that they can't afford to sue too many of them) and genuine benevolence (e.g., the people who work at WotC are gamers themselves, and they love us and want us to be happy and have a special plan for each and every one of us). I'm not saying that either of these reasons explain why WotC does things the way they do, I'm just speculating, but most of us know that the first possible reason is, in some way or another true.

It's important to remember that yes, we are the customers. WotC does, in fact, need us. But there's a difference between being treated poorly and not getting your every wish fulfilled. It would be super-duper-awesome if Subway gave me extra cheese on my sub for free, or if every time I went there I got triple punches on my Subway Club Card, and if I really felt like that's what they must do to deserve my fast food dollar then I wouldn't go there. But I wouldn't troll Subway fan forums or stand outside of Subway and tell everyone who walks in that the new bread is far inferior to the old bread. I wouldn't nerdrage (yes, there are sandwich nerds, and in case you can't tell I happen to be one).

As a note, I was careful to use terms like "infringement" or "copyright violation" in my post because I thought the word "illegal" ould sound combative to a reader who doesn't know me...but seriously, copyright violation is illegal. Using unlicensed fantasy art on your campaign wiki might be the intellectual property equivalent of jaywalking, but it's still against the law.
 
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And, my wepgage is public and viewable by all. My gamestore owner has my email, and WotC has my email. If at ANY time they felt I were misrepresenting, they could shoot me a C&D (as they apparently are wont to do) and the owner could call off my game. So...what's the excuse?

I just wanted to highlight this. WotC has hundreds of thousands if not millions of customers. It's not reasonable to expect them to monitor everyone's Web page for violations!
 

Most people on this thread are quite supportive of wizard's initial(!) responses. Obviously, nobody's surprised by the stance, but I think we, as a community, should be wary of being too meek in voicing valid concerns. You get what you ask for; and if wizards is under no pressure to accommodate us - don't expect them to anytime soon.

So, while the response isn't surprising, I do see problems with it, and we shouldn't ignore whats good for us just because we accept that WotC does what's good for them.

To start with, it's simply condescending to claim that wizards of the coast is "unable" to grant permission to use their IP - and it's unreasonable and impolite to then hide behind a third party (it's the lawyer's fault!) when asked why.

Wizard's sells tools to help a creative process and does so not primarily based on the tools themselves but based on the brand with the reliability and expectations that entails. I have sympathy with the fact that opening the tools up risks losing income in selling them - but if a company sells tools for a creative process, it's not unreasonable to expect permission to be able to public discuss and show those creations. Wizard's policies currently do make that hard.

Unfortunately, this is a bargain between vastly unequal parties; nobody is surprised that WotC holds all the cards and makes the rules. But that doesn't mean we have to like that part of the deal even if we like other parts of D&D. It's perfectly OK to ask for more - and perhaps the permission can be set up in a way to avoid undermining WotC - but I don't expect WotC to spend any effort finding such a solution if they're under no pressure to do so.

Edit: To be clear, I'm very happy that wizards has since stated that they're working to partially address the issues - illustrating that it's worth persevering with these kind of issues. The more easily and freely available stuff, the more naturally wizard's products can be integrated into your campaign.
 
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Most people on this thread are quite supportive of wizard's response. Obviously, nobody's suprised by the response, but I think we, as a community, should be wary of being too meek in voicing valid concerns. You get what you ask for; and if wizards is under no pressure to accomodate us - don't expect them to anytime soon.

So, while the response isn't surprising, I do see problems with it, and we shouldn't ignore whats good for us just because we accept that WotC does what's good for them.

To start with, it's simply condescending to claim that wizards of the coast is "unable" to grant permission to use their IP - and it's unreasonable and impolite to then hide behind a third party (it's the lawyer's fault!) when asked why.

Wizard's sells tools to help a creative process and does so not primarily based on the tools themselves but based on the brand with the reliability and expectations that entails. I have sympathy with the fact that opening the tools up risks losing income in selling them - but if a company sells tools for a creative process, it's not unreasonable to expect permission to be able to public discuss and show those creations. Wizard's policies currently do make that hard.

Unfortunately, this is a bargain between vastly unequal parties; nobody is surprised that WotC holds all the cards and makes the rules. But that doesn't mean we have to like that part of the deal even if we like other parts of D&D. It's perfectly OK to ask for more - and perhaps the permission can be set up in a way to avoid undermining WotC - but I don't expect WotC to spend any effort finding such a solution if they're under no pressure to do so.

You did read Gloomshroud's last post, just a few above your own, right? The one where he quoted a response from Wizards saying that they were, indeed, spending time and effort finding a solution for him, despite having no obligation to do so? And all it took was for him to enquire politely.
 

You did read Gloomshroud's last post, just a few above your own, right? The one where he quoted a response from Wizards saying that they were, indeed, spending time and effort finding a solution for him, despite having no obligation to do so? And all it took was for him to enquire politely.
I did - and as I said in that post, I'm just a little worried about how easily everybody accepted wizard's initial responses as perfectly OK. The initial responses were not OK (for reasons as described above - I'll edit the post to make that clearer) and he did us all a favor by making that clear - and I don't think the tsunami of rebuke he received was deserved. If Gloomshroud's attention and obvious irritation kept this on the agenda at wizards, we all win. It's not a black and white issue whereby understanding wizard's point of view means we should accept that as best for the players. They do appear to listen, and that means venting these (entirely reasonable) frustrations is better all around failing to let WotC know what's bothering you.
 

Most people on this thread are quite supportive of wizard's initial(!) responses. Obviously, nobody's surprised by the stance, but I think we, as a community, should be wary of being too meek in voicing valid concerns. You get what you ask for; and if wizards is under no pressure to accommodate us - don't expect them to anytime soon.
There is some validity in this, but to suggest Gloomshroud's responses were appropriate is misguided, I think. Launching into ALL CAPS with DEMANDS was petulant and belligerent, and did the fanbase no favours, because his emails were easily dismissed as ramblings. Fortunately WotC did not simply dismiss them in the end. But they could have, and would have been justified in doing so.
 

To start with, it's simply condescending to claim that wizards of the coast is "unable" to grant permission to use their IP - and it's unreasonable and impolite to then hide behind a third party (it's the lawyer's fault!) when asked why.

It's nothing of the sort. The legal department isn't a third party, for one. If your boss tells you, "don't do X," do you think that it is unreasonable and impolite to respond to a request for X by saying "I'm not allowed to do this due to instructions by my superiors?"

Unfortunately, this is a bargain between vastly unequal parties; nobody is surprised that WotC holds all the cards and makes the rules. But that doesn't mean we have to like that part of the deal even if we like other parts of D&D. It's perfectly OK to ask for more - and perhaps the permission can be set up in a way to avoid undermining WotC - but I don't expect WotC to spend any effort finding such a solution if they're under no pressure to do so.

Wizards holds very few cards, frankly. IP law is difficult to navigate and highly expensive (if not impossible) to enforce once the company stops actively (not passively, which is what is happening here) enforcing their rights. It's precarious enough that companies occasionally do silly things (like, say, ceasing PDF distribution) for fear that things might get out of control.

I agree that it's perfectly okay to ask for more. It's not okay to pitch a fit when you are refused.

And WotC's initial responses were perfectly reasonable, from what I can see. Which part of them do you find objectionable?
 

[MENTION=51942]eamon[/MENTION]: Thank you for your support! Yet another new perspective! You were able to explain with more eloquence the very substance of my thoughts at the time in a way that I could not because I was so frustrated. I think it is necessary, sometimes, in life to "rattle the cage" a bit to get the desired results. However, in this case, I think the quote below sums it up quite nicely.

I agree that it's perfectly okay to ask for more. It's not okay to pitch a fit when you are refused.

I feel that customers have rights, and I feel that we, as customers, should constantly press for better service. However, I have learned via this thread and my communications with WotC, that companies ALSO have rights. They have shown that they respect MY wishes, so I will also respect THEIRS. While they are a corporate entity and I am just lil 'ol me, but it's STILL made up of people. As with ANY person, throwing a fit is NOT the way to get results. Now, had I approached it more professionally, I think more people may have been sympathetic towards me. This was not the case, however.

But, at the end of the day, WotC came through. They addressed my issue to an extent that I am totally satisfied with. And I like the suggestion on adapating existent real-world images.
 

Unlike most threads of this nature, this one was well worth reading all the way to the end. Gloomshroud, you've shown real maturity in how you've taken constructive criticism and modified your views on the subject. Wish this happened more on RPG boards.
 

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