Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Cam Banks said:
I did say "slightly better than Borders". That's pretty faint praise
-Hyp.
WOTC is out of their freakin minds...
- Thread starter SSquirrel
- Start date
I did say "slightly better than Borders". That's pretty faint praise
-Hyp.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
DiamondB said:
Perhaps, but you're explicitly not paying for the intellectual property when you download a DRM pdf. You don't own it. You don't even get a book. You are paying for the right to view a document containing said intellectual property. It's like a software license, where you pay for the right to use the software under the conditions stated by the software company and only for the length of time they wish to allow you to use it. Not that I see WotC yanking licenses in the future, but there's always the problem that a newer pdf format will render these files obsolete and unsupportable. Ever tried to run an old quicktime movie with one of the newer players?
I'm still loyally buying pdfs from Malhavoc because they keep cranking out fantastic products that I couldn't be bothered having around as paperbacks to get wrecked. If it's not hardcover, I don't want it on paper. So I get pdfs and print out the parts I use. Those Malhavoc chaps are pretty reasonable, considering they began to offer non-DRM documents when their customers asked them to do so. It's a shame that more companies aren't as accomodating of their clients.
Also, they don't hang around here trying to feed us a sales pitch on how great DRM is and how we're all just a bunch of fearful luddites for not tearing open our chests and exposing our beating hearts to its all-encompassing love. *cough*
Treebore
First Post
If they (WOTC or any publishing company) want e-books to take off then they better charge me 47% less than they do for the print version. Digital is no where near as convenient or easily portable for me. To be portable I have to buy even more expensive electronic gear such as a laptop or e-book reader. Plus these items are no where nearly as durable as a print book. Considering how often I drop books I wouldn't take the electronics with me nearly as often as I would a print book.
Besides, charging full price is nothing but out right greed. Intelectual rights be da**ed. A bad excuse for stuffing pockets with even more cash. E-books cut out two middle men, at least. There is no excuse for charging more than half of full print retail for an e-book version, other than greed. Which is probably why e-books aren't taking off. Gee, I save a whole dollar by buying this novel in digital format instead of print? I'll pay the extra dollar for the print version, thank you very much.
Besides, charging full price is nothing but out right greed. Intelectual rights be da**ed. A bad excuse for stuffing pockets with even more cash. E-books cut out two middle men, at least. There is no excuse for charging more than half of full print retail for an e-book version, other than greed. Which is probably why e-books aren't taking off. Gee, I save a whole dollar by buying this novel in digital format instead of print? I'll pay the extra dollar for the print version, thank you very much.
Dr. Awkward said:
Yeah, that's what I was meaning to say.
BSF
Explorer
Wow, this thread is still going.
Many years ago, I worked at my FLGS. Wargames West, as a matter of fact. I also worked for a few years at one of the local bookstores. I have a _very_ good idea what the cost/MSRP difference is by the time it hits the retail channel. (While it is nice to think it is a flat rate, that isn't completely the case. It also has to do with volume with your distributors. That is part of the reason why large booksellers can sell books at a discount while your LGS might struggle to do so.)
I'm not going to go into specifics because they don't really matter. Yes, the cost of a book does reflect the efforts of the idea people. But it also reflects, as a very basic summary, the cost of printing, shipping, distribution channel markup, shipping, and retail channel markup. By using an electronic format, many of those costs are reduced or eliminated.
As customers, many of us are smart enough to know that.
It is the publishers perogative to charge whatever the market will support. There will be a higher profit margin when E-books are sold at the price of the print copies, without having incurred the associated costs of the print copies. Please don't pretend that is not the case. We know better. Whenever more efficient supply chains are used, educated consumers expect the price to them to be reduced. By jumping into the electronic market, you may also be dealing with educated consumers.
WotC and any other publisher has a legitimate concern with not alienating the traditional supply channel. It would be turning around to bite the hand that has fed you. It is a classic struggle with a changing economy. The retailers will work to protect their market segment and if the prices on ebooks undercut them, then stores such as Borders, Hastings, Barnes & Noble, Waldenbooks, etc would seriously consider cutting the product line. They sell plenty of other books and it wouldn't make a dent in their overall sales. However, it would affect WotC! So, it is a legitimate concern.
The truth is that the publishers need to choose their target audience for electronic products. Malhavoc started off electronic before going to print. Monte put out good products and built up a customer base. The money went to Malhavoc and paying the overhead. After he was established and proven to have great products that people wanted, print versions of his stuff came along. He didn't need to worry about alienating a supply channel because he was already established with his own direct-to-consumer supply channel. If a store owner doesn't like that Malhavoc products are available online, that's tough. The online products came first and are established. Monte is proving that the online market is a viable market. The publishers that were established as print publishers first are going to have a difficult time being as nimble as he can be.
This isn't a slam on the print publishers. It is a reflection of the market. WotC is not in a position to be able to afford to alienate the traditional supply channel because they haven't seen the sales in electronic products to show they can support their company by going all electronic. Another consideration comes down to the value of the brick-and-mortar stores. If WotC went all electronic, how many FLGS would have to fold up shop? How would that affect the hobby? Would it be a good thing? Unfortunately, it is not a cut-and-dried answer.
For many of us, we are not the target audience for WotC ebooks. We have readily accessible print products in traditional brick-and-mortar stores, or online and selling directly to us would risk alienating those channels. Selling to customers that do not have an existing supply chain that matters to WotC is their target audience.
It's business folks. WotC is not trying to gouge us for every penny. They are running a business. In this case, being the established market leader carries a little baggage that they need to consider before selling to us on the terms we deal with other companies, like Malhavoc Press.
Be polite. Remember that WotC's entry into the electronic market is a good thing overall because it means they are evaluating different options. Even if we don't like their terms right now, there may be marketplace changes and those terms might change. Or our stance as customers might change. More likely, it will be a combination of both.
Regarding DRM and Ebooks. I'm sorry, I buy PDFs, not ebooks. Ebooks do not work on my Fedora boxes (which are linux based). Adobe chooses to support my OS of choice, but not with DRM enabled readers. I also dislike DRM. I don't want to get into another DRM debate because I have stated my views in other threads. If any publishers are listening. I support your entry into the electronic market, but I don't support ebooks. Change the format of your offering, and I will likely purchase your electronic offerings. Right now, I am spending more money on electronic products than I am print products. That means I am passing up some of your print products and all of your ebook products in favor of PDFs.
I'm just one customer voice, and I know that. But maybe there are more like me.
Many years ago, I worked at my FLGS. Wargames West, as a matter of fact. I also worked for a few years at one of the local bookstores. I have a _very_ good idea what the cost/MSRP difference is by the time it hits the retail channel. (While it is nice to think it is a flat rate, that isn't completely the case. It also has to do with volume with your distributors. That is part of the reason why large booksellers can sell books at a discount while your LGS might struggle to do so.)
I'm not going to go into specifics because they don't really matter. Yes, the cost of a book does reflect the efforts of the idea people. But it also reflects, as a very basic summary, the cost of printing, shipping, distribution channel markup, shipping, and retail channel markup. By using an electronic format, many of those costs are reduced or eliminated.
As customers, many of us are smart enough to know that.
It is the publishers perogative to charge whatever the market will support. There will be a higher profit margin when E-books are sold at the price of the print copies, without having incurred the associated costs of the print copies. Please don't pretend that is not the case. We know better. Whenever more efficient supply chains are used, educated consumers expect the price to them to be reduced. By jumping into the electronic market, you may also be dealing with educated consumers.
WotC and any other publisher has a legitimate concern with not alienating the traditional supply channel. It would be turning around to bite the hand that has fed you. It is a classic struggle with a changing economy. The retailers will work to protect their market segment and if the prices on ebooks undercut them, then stores such as Borders, Hastings, Barnes & Noble, Waldenbooks, etc would seriously consider cutting the product line. They sell plenty of other books and it wouldn't make a dent in their overall sales. However, it would affect WotC! So, it is a legitimate concern.
The truth is that the publishers need to choose their target audience for electronic products. Malhavoc started off electronic before going to print. Monte put out good products and built up a customer base. The money went to Malhavoc and paying the overhead. After he was established and proven to have great products that people wanted, print versions of his stuff came along. He didn't need to worry about alienating a supply channel because he was already established with his own direct-to-consumer supply channel. If a store owner doesn't like that Malhavoc products are available online, that's tough. The online products came first and are established. Monte is proving that the online market is a viable market. The publishers that were established as print publishers first are going to have a difficult time being as nimble as he can be.
This isn't a slam on the print publishers. It is a reflection of the market. WotC is not in a position to be able to afford to alienate the traditional supply channel because they haven't seen the sales in electronic products to show they can support their company by going all electronic. Another consideration comes down to the value of the brick-and-mortar stores. If WotC went all electronic, how many FLGS would have to fold up shop? How would that affect the hobby? Would it be a good thing? Unfortunately, it is not a cut-and-dried answer.
For many of us, we are not the target audience for WotC ebooks. We have readily accessible print products in traditional brick-and-mortar stores, or online and selling directly to us would risk alienating those channels. Selling to customers that do not have an existing supply chain that matters to WotC is their target audience.
It's business folks. WotC is not trying to gouge us for every penny. They are running a business. In this case, being the established market leader carries a little baggage that they need to consider before selling to us on the terms we deal with other companies, like Malhavoc Press.
Be polite. Remember that WotC's entry into the electronic market is a good thing overall because it means they are evaluating different options. Even if we don't like their terms right now, there may be marketplace changes and those terms might change. Or our stance as customers might change. More likely, it will be a combination of both.
Regarding DRM and Ebooks. I'm sorry, I buy PDFs, not ebooks. Ebooks do not work on my Fedora boxes (which are linux based). Adobe chooses to support my OS of choice, but not with DRM enabled readers. I also dislike DRM. I don't want to get into another DRM debate because I have stated my views in other threads. If any publishers are listening. I support your entry into the electronic market, but I don't support ebooks. Change the format of your offering, and I will likely purchase your electronic offerings. Right now, I am spending more money on electronic products than I am print products. That means I am passing up some of your print products and all of your ebook products in favor of PDFs.
I'm just one customer voice, and I know that. But maybe there are more like me.
Brown Jenkin
First Post
maddman75 said:
Unfortunately I agree. As much as I want WotC to succeed, I would rather have them and every other game manufacturer go out of bussiness than have DRM be successful.
BSF
Explorer
My hat of DRM know no limit. 
I hear you! My opinions toward DRM border on vitriolic. But I still wouldn't wish for any game company to go out of business over it. Of course, if any publisher moved to producing DRM Ebooks exclusively, I am sorry to say they would become irrelevant to me.
Yeah, DRM is easy to break. It's so easy that DRM is an expensive joke. But lobbyist have also made it a potential crime to break it. I could get an Ebook and turn it into a PDF, but it is against the law to do so. Why should I bother breaking the law to get something as irrelevant as a gaming product? Treat me as a casual thief when I try to buy your product and I will turn around and walk away.
I hear you! My opinions toward DRM border on vitriolic. But I still wouldn't wish for any game company to go out of business over it. Of course, if any publisher moved to producing DRM Ebooks exclusively, I am sorry to say they would become irrelevant to me.
Yeah, DRM is easy to break. It's so easy that DRM is an expensive joke. But lobbyist have also made it a potential crime to break it. I could get an Ebook and turn it into a PDF, but it is against the law to do so. Why should I bother breaking the law to get something as irrelevant as a gaming product? Treat me as a casual thief when I try to buy your product and I will turn around and walk away.
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