WotC Mailbog Podcast up

[Jhaelen]

I think I saw a Disarm attempt used once during my years with 3.x, and that was by the DM.

I've never seen counterspell used

That's similar to my experience. I've used disarm exactly once (as a DM). I used counterspell twice, already, though. IIRC, I also used sunder about twice (in a battle against treants). None of these options have ever been used by a player in 5 years of playing 3E.

I think that's a rare enough occurence, that you don't necessarily need an explicit rule for it. In 4E it also exists as a power and might exist as a monster/npc ability. If a player was really about to try it in 4E, I'd use some ad-hoc ruling based on the suggestions in the DMG.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I wasn't really trying to make a correlation, I was just curious. IME, disarming is kind of like counterspelling, its there, but never actually used. The difference is that no one is bemoaning the loss of counterspelling (at least that I can remember; to bring this point back to home, few are exactly lamenting the loss of sunder either, at least in this thread) because its not something that you really see in real world combat, film, novels, etc.


I think that others have discussed the balance, narrative, and gamist issues with disarm, but I do think its situationalism is also a big mark against it given its impact on resource management, at least as we normally conceive of the ability. IMO, for something like that to be re-introduced into the game, I think you have to take a step back and make the action more abstract.

I think you're right. That's why people are talking about "disarming bears." 4e has you tripping oozes, it shouldn't have much of a problem with you disarming bears.

In the same vein, if counterspelling was more abstract: "spend your power to deny someone the use of theirs," I bet you'd see it more often. A sort of "If you spend an encounter power, your enemy's recharge power fails" kind of thing would make some sense.

Sunder is a little different, because it's permanent damage. That's a bit of a harrier subsystem.

If the primary objection is theoretical, and people, for the most part, weren't actually using Disarm in 3e, then it demonstrates that 3e style disarm (infinitely repeatable, largely a trivial penalty because regaining your weapon is easy, etc) isn't necessarily needed.

While I think you'd find general agreement that disarm could be done better than it was in 3e, I'm not so sure you'll find a good consensus on what should be changed about it to make it "better." I mean the same criticisms you levy against 3e-style disarm could be levied against 4e-style bull rushes. Does this mean 4e-style bull rushes are not necessarily needed? Maybe not. But they certainly add a dimension to teamwork and positioning in 4e's grid-centric combat. I think a 4e disarm that was in the same vein would also add some interesting strategy to the "economy of action" management in the same way that 4e's trip does.

Or it could just be a narrative device.

Or it could be an extra kick that a class gets when given combat advantage (it sounds really ripe for a swashbuckler!).

Or a number of different things.

There's a lot of ways to fix it so that it can be used (and is a good idea to use). The weird thing is that the podcast suggests that it is inherently flawed and un-fixable, but this thread has demonstrated a few times over that the Coasties, at least here, were thinking too inside the box to see the potential there.

 

[JVisgaitis]

If disarm was like grab I'd probably have it like this:

This I like. I do wish there was some sort of facility built into 4e where you had an additional encounter ability that you could use for stuff like this. Something that wouldn't be class specific, but would be like a combat move you could do once per encounter like trip, disarm, sunder, etc. The powers system works well as it is, I just wish it were a bit more flexible.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This I like. I do wish there was some sort of facility built into 4e where you had an additional encounter ability that you could use for stuff like this. Something that wouldn't be class specific, but would be like a combat move you could do once per encounter like trip, disarm, sunder, etc. The powers system works well as it is, I just wish it were a bit more flexible.

You mean the options of trip, disarm or sunder should be described in p.42 of the DMG instead of merely damage expressions? Yes, you might have a point.

 

[JVisgaitis]

You mean the options of trip, disarm or sunder should be described in p.42 of the DMG instead of merely damage expressions? Yes, you might have a point.

That would work, but that wasn't what I meant. I was thinking of generic per encounter abilities like trip, disarm, sunder, etc that anyone could use. If you use one of these abilities, it removes one of your encounter powers.

EDIT: I'm an idiot. Yes, specific options that are described that expend an encounter power for game balance.

 

[drscott46]

Here you can read into it whatever you want. I heard something about Birthright in regards to homebrew and gave my opinion on the matter. Are you saying I don't have the right to my own opinion, and in your oppressive world must subscribe to each and every one of your beliefs? No? Then I stand by what I said, and you can do with that information whatever you please. Birthright sucks. Don't emulate it.

The problem is not that you apparently don't like Birthright. That's fine. The problem is that you were grossly misrepresenting what Dave and Mike were actually saying in the podcast. The question asked was, "What are some of your favorite homebrewed rules editions, and could you offer some advice on designing them?" Dave said that he designed a realm-control system that was a "much worse version of a Birthright-type setup" and explained that it was a good example of how not to do it (designing homebrew rules) because he didn't take into proper account the campaign-altering implications of having whole countries be affected by PC adventuring actions, etc.

I'm always sympathetic to a good self-righteous freakout and everything, but I just had to point that out.

 

[balard]

One good way to do disarm, already exists in the rules. Just look at Intimidate. Disarm could be the same. You get a feat, make a standard action attack against the foe Reflex if he is bloodied, and if you win you disarm it. You can even make it work normally(weapon falls in the foe's square, can be kicked/enemy moved, won't work in bears....). Easy and with something that is already in the system(defeating bloodied enemies by a test)

 

[Admiral Caine]

Disclaimer: I haven't heard the podcast yet. I'm also not trying to spread rumors, but actually trying to get some confirmation.

There is some discussion on another board that speaker in this podcast is Kerin Chase. (Stop me there if that is not the case)

Chase identifies themselves as a Brand Manager for D&D.

The rumor is that this person is Rouse's replacement. The counter-argument being that one can be a Brand Manager and not be the Senior Brand Manager, and that Rouse is just fine.

Anybody seen Scott Rouse post today? Anybody that has actually heard it care to comment?

 

[Protagonist]

Let's summon him via the Rite of Ashk-Rouse

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

I allow players to disarm or sunder automatic success on a natural 20. It works, it's simple and doesn't require a wasted roll to attempt it.

/shrug