WoTC products, going downhill?

[MoogleEmpMog]

The release of 3rd edition marked a period of very high standard quality books released by WOTC for the RPG industry.

Seriously? Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood, Masters of the Wild, the Hero Builders Handbook - you consider these and their contemporaries the high water mark of d20 design? Or at least WotC's d20 design?

 

[Mercule]

Seriously? Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood, Masters of the Wild, the Hero Builders Handbook - you consider these and their contemporaries the high water mark of d20 design? Or at least WotC's d20 design?

Thank you. I was afraid I was the only one confused by that comment. I ditched the original splat books as soon as 3.5 came out. In fact, I pretty much used 3.5 as an excuse to do so, even though some of the material was completely compatible.

 

[Voadam]

I saw lots of nifty things in my brother's copy of Complete Champion and heard neat things about MMV and the Magic Item Compendium. I heard poor things about Expedition to Undermountain.

I mostly get older d20 things in pdf though with the occasional hardcover book as a gift. Spell Compendium, MMIV, and the Fiendish Codexes were my most recent WotC D&D books and I've liked them (even the MMIV since I have a use for the 1001 spawn of Tiamat in my current campaign).

 

[Odhanan]

Comparing 3.0 splats with 3.5 Completes is not the comparison I find the most accurate. However, comparing 3.5 Completes and on with the later Dungeonscape, Drow etc, I find the quality is a bit downhill. I don't feel like we really get some new and exciting stuff lately (with some exceptions like Bo9S). The Expeditions are not bad, it seems, but apart of Ravenloft, I can't say any screamed "buy me!" to my ears.

Now that said, I have to say I've really been chilled by the whole Dungeon/Dragon debacle. I just bought two WotC products since: Saga, which I found was great, and Eyes of the Lich Queen, which I haven't read as of yet.

 

[HeinorNY]

Seriously? Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood, Masters of the Wild, the Hero Builders Handbook - you consider these and their contemporaries the high water mark of d20 design? Or at least WotC's d20 design?

Sorry. I meant by "high standard of quality" also the gamers expectation after the release of D&D 3rd edition and the d20 system. It's a personal expectation and of my friends. D&D3d was a very well made book and I expected that the next releases would follow the same streamline. There were some awful books like the ones you mentioned, but I always liked most of the fluffy Forgotten Realms boooks, the complete classes, Eberron CS too. Most of SW books pre-saga were excellent, Call of Cthulhu d20 is IMO the best way to play the CoC game, Wheel of Time was also a great book, D20 Modern, all these were very top notch books to my taste.
Since late 2004, start of 2005, that nothing released by WOTC caught my attention, and those that did (SWSE, Bo9S, MoI, ToM, and most MMs) deeply disapointed me.

edit: I don't think Bo9S was bad, it just came to be something different from what I expected (and wanted).

 

[Treebore]

Saga Edition Star Wars to me shows the general downhill slant. While a great book at first look, once you get into the rules you see just how sloppy they have been with the play-testing and editing. The Errata (released and official from the forums) runs to 7 pages in 10pt font. There are serious problems with both Starship combat and normal melee combat, where they have over simplified to the point of breaking things (Bantha Rush is just one example).

A little bit of extra effort and this would have been a killer product, unfortunately it just looks rushed now.

Yeah. I am glad I was, and am, in no hurry to buy this. I'll definitely wait until a printing is done where all of this is cleared up. If they don't print such a book then I will never play SAGA.

I don't think 3E quality has gone down hill. I think its just a decline in interest for more feats, PrC's, etc... for me. I do like the Fiend books and Magic and Spell Compendiums. Of all the Expedition books Undermountain really disgusted me, but I think that is because I extensively used the old versions. Ravenloft I was really pleased with. Mostly because the elements I liked about the original were still there, or easily put back in by me, and several good new ideas for me to utilize.

The modules I have been pleased with. Even when linear. Simply because they won't be linear when I run them.

So I think WOTC is doing good product, just my interests haven't kept up with their production schedule.

 

[Klaus]

Seriously? Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood, Masters of the Wild, the Hero Builders Handbook - you consider these and their contemporaries the high water mark of d20 design? Or at least WotC's d20 design?

I liked the Hero Builder's Guidebook, and it's the reason for the Oddballs gallery in my site.

 

[megamania]

I went with "about the same".

I play mainly Eberron which has been very good. The general use books just are not grabbing my attention however. We need more creature type books that 'redefine' the creature or but a better spin on it. Giants have potencial that are being overlooked. I think even Eberron could really use a giants only book (their rich history and magics with planar exploration).

 

[Nepenthe]

I haven't managed to take a look at the new Star Wars, so you'll have to excuse me... but are there any real innovations (ok, not related to the force) that weren't already in Unearthed Arcana? I mean, I might be completely wrong in this, but most of the brilliant new changes(tm) have read to me like some of the speed-up versions from UA.

 

[Klaus]

I haven't managed to take a look at the new Star Wars, so you'll have to excuse me... but are there any real innovations (ok, not related to the force) that weren't already in Unearthed Arcana? I mean, I might be completely wrong in this, but most of the brilliant new changes(tm) have read to me like some of the speed-up versions from UA.

No AC, just Defenses (re-named Saving Throws), which are static.
Everyone has a Standard, Move and Swift action per round. You can trade an action for a lesser one, and several actions require that you spend more actions in a round (aiming, for instance, requires two swift actions, so you'll stand still while aiming, and then ignore less-than-total cover).
Condition Monitor (Normal, -1, -2, -5, -10, unconscious or disabled).
Objects are subject to critical hits and have a condition monitor as well.
Every natural 20 is a hit, and is a critical (no confirmation roll needed).
No iteractive attacks (+11/+6/+1). You can take feats to attack more than once in a round, but all attacks are at the same penalty (attack once at +14 or twice at +9/+9).
Class-based bonus to defenses. If you multiclass, use the best bonus (and they're flat).
Level-based bonus to defenses. If you wear armor, you *must* use the armor's bonus instead. You can take talents that allow you to choose wether to use your level- or armor-based bonus, and later on you can use both.
Etc, etc...