Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
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WotC Replies: Statements by WotC employees regarding Dragon/Dungeon going online
- Thread starter Doug McCrae
- Start date
borc killer
First Post
I have been trying to figure out why I find 90% of the response to this decision so repugnant. After a few hours of thought I think I have it figured out. The response proves that a lot of people in this hobby are a bunch worthless smelly trolls. I guess for decades I have been turning to a blind eye to it… but I just have to accept it now.
/boggles
borc killer, please refrain from suggesting suicide as a solution to people's emotional reaction to the loss to these mags. You may think it is an over-reaction, and you might even be right, but that is no reason to break the board rules of civility and respect.
If you don't like the reaction, you can always stop reading. I have edited your message if you have any questions feel free to email me or one of the other mods.
Thanks
-el-remmen (a mod).
/boggles
borc killer, please refrain from suggesting suicide as a solution to people's emotional reaction to the loss to these mags. You may think it is an over-reaction, and you might even be right, but that is no reason to break the board rules of civility and respect.
If you don't like the reaction, you can always stop reading. I have edited your message if you have any questions feel free to email me or one of the other mods.
Thanks
-el-remmen (a mod).
Last edited by a moderator:
It's not about two magazines.
This is not just about the death of Dungeon and Dragon. The assumption is that a change much greater than that is on the horizon, and there isn't a lot of info on what that is, nor faith that it will be good for the core fanbase of D&D.
There are a lot of legitimate concerns about the future of our hobby. It's always had to compete with computer games, but MMORPGs are providing a flashy, accessible, but much more shallow form of entertainment for the same target audience. The flagship property of table top gaming is ultimately owned by a massive toy corporation, whose focus is always going to be on generating the most amount of sales and the most amount of revenue.
Whether the new electronic initiative is good or not is somewhat besides the point. The move away from the print magazines clearly was done without worrying about a negative reaction from the core D&D audience. We are a relatively small subset of that greater world of players that could be captured by something new and flashy. The D&D movies, and D&D Online, are both examples of an effort to achieve a broad base of success by abandoning the very core that also holds Dungeon and Dragon dear. Maybe neither of those attempts were successful but there will be more, and eventually I think we all worry that eventually the next attempt to mass market D&D will be by dramatically shifting the core gaming experience into something that can attract those MMORPG gamers. Without more information, abandoning Dungeon and Dragon would seem a logical early step towards that ultimate end.
I don't consider myself a grumpy old fart. I work in technology and have more computers than anyone should own. I'm researching buying a tablet PC to use at the gaming table. I am annoyed by the amount of space that all my D&D books and magazines take up in my apartment. But I'll miss the care and quality of Dungeon, and right now I remain thoroughly unconvinced that this is not the forerunner of something new and bad for our hobby.
This is not just about the death of Dungeon and Dragon. The assumption is that a change much greater than that is on the horizon, and there isn't a lot of info on what that is, nor faith that it will be good for the core fanbase of D&D.
There are a lot of legitimate concerns about the future of our hobby. It's always had to compete with computer games, but MMORPGs are providing a flashy, accessible, but much more shallow form of entertainment for the same target audience. The flagship property of table top gaming is ultimately owned by a massive toy corporation, whose focus is always going to be on generating the most amount of sales and the most amount of revenue.
Whether the new electronic initiative is good or not is somewhat besides the point. The move away from the print magazines clearly was done without worrying about a negative reaction from the core D&D audience. We are a relatively small subset of that greater world of players that could be captured by something new and flashy. The D&D movies, and D&D Online, are both examples of an effort to achieve a broad base of success by abandoning the very core that also holds Dungeon and Dragon dear. Maybe neither of those attempts were successful but there will be more, and eventually I think we all worry that eventually the next attempt to mass market D&D will be by dramatically shifting the core gaming experience into something that can attract those MMORPG gamers. Without more information, abandoning Dungeon and Dragon would seem a logical early step towards that ultimate end.
I don't consider myself a grumpy old fart. I work in technology and have more computers than anyone should own. I'm researching buying a tablet PC to use at the gaming table. I am annoyed by the amount of space that all my D&D books and magazines take up in my apartment. But I'll miss the care and quality of Dungeon, and right now I remain thoroughly unconvinced that this is not the forerunner of something new and bad for our hobby.
Dire Bare
Legend
Vanuslux said:
Reynard said:
And why can't WotC also provide pre-paid cards for sale at retail?
I am also still reeling from yesterday's news, but like a few here I am also getting quite sick of the hyperbole and almost deliberate ignorance from many posters here (not necessarily the two quoted above, just in general).
I sympathize with every post that expresses dismay and feelings of loss with the impending cancellation of the two mags, but almost every post that offers "proof", "evidence", or "arguments" regarding how evil and foolish WotC is in the matter are just blowing smoke.
Fact is, we know very little about what Wizards is planning. It could suck. It could rock. I think it will probably cut the difference and neither suck nor rock, but I'm willing to wait and see.
BronzeDragon
Explorer
As someone who has been away from RPGs (and, consequently, D&D) for about two years, I speak with a little more comfort than most here.
I love books. I absolutely love them. Magazines usually are to books what a "quickie" is to sex (pardon the comparison, but it's the one that first popped in my mind).
However, Dragon and Dungeon were not regular magazines. They could be referenced in the future, used endlessly, providing new things even years after their publication date. Far more like a good book than a regular subscription magazine. Far from being "quickies", they were nearly endless repositories of fun and enjoyment.
It's very interesting that WotC has decided to pay more attention to the online world, and I hope their new take is better than the first blunders of TSR back in the early 90's (if anyone here remembers Wilson's "Showdown on the Electronic Frontier" editorial in Computer Gaming World, bonus cookies). But it's just not my kind of thing with PnP RPGs.
Don't get me wrong, I love the electronic world. I have been playing World of Warcraft for almost two years now, and the enjoyment I have there is, contrary to popular belief, no less than what I had in my best years of PnP gaming. It is not shallow when you're surrounded by people you like and communicate with every day, and when you experience adventures, be they facing monsters in a cave or just running around town talking to each other (or beating each other to pieces in PvP). It's just a matter of recognizing that it didn't really matter what the adventure was about, it was all about friends and human company. But I diverge from my point.
Role-playing games were, for me, a lot about the experience of the written word. I liked to write my adventures (always been a DM at heart, I began as one and ended as one. I played in a grand total of 3 campaigns in my life), and I liked to see the rules and the setting fleshed out in detail. I understand that this is perfectly possible in an electronic media, but something just doesn't feel right.
As I said before, I love books. And I think my fetish (for lack of a better term...though it may be more appropriate than I think) for paper may just be the tipping issue in all this. I cannot see myself, in the past, present or future, investing my money on an RPG magazine (or its equivalent) that is only available in online format. It's the same reason why I don't read comic books online, however available they may be.
A computer, no matter how small, is infinitely more cumbersome than a book. It has wires, or it's hot, or it has to be recharged, or it's too big. It also hurts your eyes if you spend more than a couple of hours reading something on the screen. I do not recall ever having to stop reading a book because my eyes hurt, even after marathon sessions of ten to fourteen hours. Computer screens have evolved since the Amber and Green screens of yore, but not to the point of actually being comparable to a sheet of paper.
There may come a time when PnP RPGs become CnC (Computer and Computer) RPGs, but I do not believe it will happen soon. Some would correct me and point to my own experience with MMORPGs as proof that such a change has already taken place. Though I would admit (as I did at the start) that I immensely enjoy my MMO experience, I am also ready to say it's definitely a different experience. Until a time comes when I can honestly say something I play online is the equivalent of a PnP RPG, I will remain away from them.
I am currently preparing a campaign in the world of Birthright, a long expected (at least among my closest friends) return to PnP RPGs, and of course this gives me considerable freedom to ignore anything new from WotC or any other company for that matter. But I still enjoyed the chance of looking into a Dragon magazine, new or old, and expecting to find something that would help me craft a better campaign for me and my players.
A sad day for me.
I love books. I absolutely love them. Magazines usually are to books what a "quickie" is to sex (pardon the comparison, but it's the one that first popped in my mind).
However, Dragon and Dungeon were not regular magazines. They could be referenced in the future, used endlessly, providing new things even years after their publication date. Far more like a good book than a regular subscription magazine. Far from being "quickies", they were nearly endless repositories of fun and enjoyment.
It's very interesting that WotC has decided to pay more attention to the online world, and I hope their new take is better than the first blunders of TSR back in the early 90's (if anyone here remembers Wilson's "Showdown on the Electronic Frontier" editorial in Computer Gaming World, bonus cookies). But it's just not my kind of thing with PnP RPGs.
Don't get me wrong, I love the electronic world. I have been playing World of Warcraft for almost two years now, and the enjoyment I have there is, contrary to popular belief, no less than what I had in my best years of PnP gaming. It is not shallow when you're surrounded by people you like and communicate with every day, and when you experience adventures, be they facing monsters in a cave or just running around town talking to each other (or beating each other to pieces in PvP). It's just a matter of recognizing that it didn't really matter what the adventure was about, it was all about friends and human company. But I diverge from my point.
Role-playing games were, for me, a lot about the experience of the written word. I liked to write my adventures (always been a DM at heart, I began as one and ended as one. I played in a grand total of 3 campaigns in my life), and I liked to see the rules and the setting fleshed out in detail. I understand that this is perfectly possible in an electronic media, but something just doesn't feel right.
As I said before, I love books. And I think my fetish (for lack of a better term...though it may be more appropriate than I think) for paper may just be the tipping issue in all this. I cannot see myself, in the past, present or future, investing my money on an RPG magazine (or its equivalent) that is only available in online format. It's the same reason why I don't read comic books online, however available they may be.
A computer, no matter how small, is infinitely more cumbersome than a book. It has wires, or it's hot, or it has to be recharged, or it's too big. It also hurts your eyes if you spend more than a couple of hours reading something on the screen. I do not recall ever having to stop reading a book because my eyes hurt, even after marathon sessions of ten to fourteen hours. Computer screens have evolved since the Amber and Green screens of yore, but not to the point of actually being comparable to a sheet of paper.
There may come a time when PnP RPGs become CnC (Computer and Computer) RPGs, but I do not believe it will happen soon. Some would correct me and point to my own experience with MMORPGs as proof that such a change has already taken place. Though I would admit (as I did at the start) that I immensely enjoy my MMO experience, I am also ready to say it's definitely a different experience. Until a time comes when I can honestly say something I play online is the equivalent of a PnP RPG, I will remain away from them.
I am currently preparing a campaign in the world of Birthright, a long expected (at least among my closest friends) return to PnP RPGs, and of course this gives me considerable freedom to ignore anything new from WotC or any other company for that matter. But I still enjoyed the chance of looking into a Dragon magazine, new or old, and expecting to find something that would help me craft a better campaign for me and my players.
A sad day for me.
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