WoTC Rich: Beholder!

[InfernalistGamer]

If you're in the antimagic cone, you can't be zapped. When you leave the antimagic cone, your defensive spells reappear.

Let's begin with why that is no big deal, even with a solo 3.5 beholder.

1) Charm Monster/Charm Person on non-mage party ranged party member, who takes shots at mage. You will hate the party ranger after this.
2) Disintegrate triggers to traps, weak points...beholders are smart enough to set this stuff up. "Oh look, the beholder's ceiling had a wooden door in it, now that door is gone, and big freaking rocks are falling out on your mage."
3) Telekinesis, in a similar vein, to pull levers, press trap triggers, or just shove a boulder or fling a statue. You've got plenty of statues to throw, after all, Flesh to Stone, remember? Or some dwarf in spiky armor you just neutralized with a sleep ray...

Secondly, any beholder who flies at floor level is a retarded specimen of it's kind. If you REALLY want to utilize the bite attack, pick someone up with telekinesis, crush them, then bite their head off their crippled body. Not that the 2d4 is worth it...better to keep the mouth free for attacks of opportunity from fliers.

Thirdly...2nd edition beholders could fly upside down. All ten eyestalks...one cone of doom. Nothing says they can't still do it. The thing blasts a 10 foot wide hole in a ceiling, flips over, and hides in it. Anyone gets in a cone under that hole...which, for you non-math kids is a fireball sized space on the floor in a ten foot tall room...doomed.

And let's not even get into giving them Knowledge (arcana), Sense Motive and Spellcraft, for even better anti-mage tactics...and instead of Great Fortitude and Iron Will, dropping some Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot...and with Flyby Attack, a beholder can claim full cover every round while still popping out to hose folks.

Now, in 4E, I hope it's even nastier, but damn, you can do alot with what's out there now, without even templating, advancing or customizing.

 

[Ahglock]

I had a wizard in my group who was also one of the "unkillable wizard" types. He always had mirror image going. He made sure he did because it rendered him a very difficult target for all spells and effects that needed a target. Extend spell, persistent spell, quicken spell...

If that wizard had any idea there would be a fight coming up, he was buffed to the gills, and it worked out very well. Any wizard worth his salt over above 7th level should never need to worry about a random SoD spell killing him, and he should usually win initiative anyway.

No wizard over 7th level????

Um whiskey tango foxtrot. I'm not sure how it works in most games but um yeah a 10th level wizard isn't going to have many buffs up all the time in any games I've seen. Persistent is +6 levels, that makes mirror image what a 8th level spell that gets dropped in the 1st couple rounds of combat. I'm not thrilled with how magic works in 3e.5 but invulnerable wizards have been easily dealt with in my games. The only really big suckage IMO is most of the counters include magic, so it sucks that at mid-high levels all of my adventures must include either spellcasters or some awesome items or wards.

 

[JohnBiles]

Man, you have missed out on the original one-monster TPK. I don't know any other regular monster that's caused so much grief to a party of the appropriate level (save DCs get way too low when the PCs start leveling up).

One of my players (a wizardophile) once boasted that none of his characters (all wizards) had ever died in a game. That, essentially, he was an unkillable death machine. I smiled and nodded... bacause I knew the Beholder was coming in the next session.

He got disintegrated.

And no, I didn't cheat.

Played in a party in 2E which had a wizard who could only fail any save vs. spells on a 1 and had a spell turning ring too.

Nevertheless, he was killed twice by the same lich in two consecutive sessions by a Lich with Finger of Death.

He also got charmed like all the rest of us by some mind flayers in space despite this. They then sold us to beholders as slaves.

Amazingly, Grettir the Barbarian, who had the worst spell save in the party somehow threw off the mind control magic first and went on a one-man unarmed rampage through the beholder ship, which included him leaping 60 feet down off a platform onto the top of a beholder, ripping off its eyestalks, and beating him to death with them.

The DM and all of us were totally stunned.

(Mind you, he had a belt of storm giant strength)

 

[Felon]

oh, maybe this time it is a real fight between beholder and players... all i remember from fights is all characters charging at the beholder, in hope to win iniative and killing it before it gets a single spell out...

Heh. Either that entire party can fly, or that's one dumb beholder.

 

[Felon]

Same with me, until a couple of weeks ago. It wasn't worth the wait, alas. The beholder actually surprised the party, but it got very unlucky. The PCs were all in the same arc, and I had the players roll randomly to decide which rays they were facing. They didn't get any of the SoDs, two of the three made their saves, and the third PC was barely injured. The beholder then rolled a really lousy initiative and was dead before it could act again. Sad, really.

Sounds like you turned the beholder into a crap-shoot monster. Why would the party be randomly facing rays instead of the beholder using his most effective ones? It's a no-brainer that a disintegrate is better than an inflict moderate wounds. Pull your punches sufficiently and any monster is a wimp.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm with felon on this one. No offense Mr Patient, but that's like saying "I let the players roll randomly to see if the dragon clawed them, bit them, hit them with a wing or it's tail, or if it breathed fire on them. Funny how fast it died. Dragons suck."

Fitz

 

[Mr. Patient]

I'm with felon on this one. No offense Mr Patient, but that's like saying "I let the players roll randomly to see if the dragon clawed them, bit them, hit them with a wing or it's tail, or if it breathed fire on them. Funny how fast it died. Dragons suck."

Fitz

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make a statement that the beholder sucks based on that experience, just relaying a story. Obviously randomly choosing the rays is going to lead to some pretty suboptimal results. As a group, we tend to limit save-or-die situations as a general rule, since we don't find them to be a lot of fun. But it was near the end of the campaign, and I wanted to use a beholder anyway. Since they are essentially SoD machines, I thought it would be amusing and suspenseful (since they knew exactly what they were rolling for) to have the players be the ones responsible for inflicting finger of death on themselves. Just didn't work out that way. In retrospect I probably should have just used a Mearls beholder or something.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

No wizard over 7th level????

Um whiskey tango foxtrot. I'm not sure how it works in most games but um yeah a 10th level wizard isn't going to have many buffs up all the time in any games I've seen. Persistent is +6 levels, that makes mirror image what a 8th level spell that gets dropped in the 1st couple rounds of combat.

Which is why you use Extend until you can use Persist.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Let's begin with why that is no big deal, even with a solo 3.5 beholder.

1) Charm Monster/Charm Person on non-mage party ranged party member, who takes shots at mage. You will hate the party ranger after this.

The wizard and cleric should have a few Dispel Magics (or Greater DM) for just such an eventuality. They did realize they were up against a beholder before they kicked in the door, right? I generally assume that players will be at least minimally prepared for tough encounters, and spellcasters in my games know that without a good supply of Dispels, they'll have a much worse time fighting other spellcasters.

2) Disintegrate triggers to traps, weak points...beholders are smart enough to set this stuff up. "Oh look, the beholder's ceiling had a wooden door in it, now that door is gone, and big freaking rocks are falling out on your mage."

Player: What was the spot check to notice the trap in the ceiling?
DM: Um... 50?
Player: Okay, rocks fall, we all die. Never thought I'd actually see that in a real game. Anyone want to dump this jerk and find a DM that isn't out to get us and plays by the rules?

3) Telekinesis, in a similar vein, to pull levers, press trap triggers, or just shove a boulder or fling a statue. You've got plenty of statues to throw, after all, Flesh to Stone, remember? Or some dwarf in spiky armor you just neutralized with a sleep ray...

Assuming you're not just dropping the ceiling on the players without giving them a chance to spot the trap, but are actually trying to hit them with a thrown object, you must roll to hit. If you can't hit the wizard with a ray because of the Mirror Images, you can't hit him with a thrown statue either.

Secondly, any beholder who flies at floor level is a retarded specimen of it's kind. If you REALLY want to utilize the bite attack, pick someone up with telekinesis, crush them, then bite their head off their crippled body. Not that the 2d4 is worth it...better to keep the mouth free for attacks of opportunity from fliers.

Do most 9th level characters not have access to the Fly spell? Or bows? I notice that spells don't usually care whether your target is on the ground.

Thirdly...2nd edition beholders could fly upside down. All ten eyestalks...one cone of doom. Nothing says they can't still do it.

Well, except for the rules.

During a single round, a creature can aim only two eye rays (gauth) or three eye rays (beholder) at targets in any one 90 degree arc (up, forward, backward, left, right, or down). The remaining eyes must aim at targets in other arcs, or not at all.

And let's not even get into giving them Knowledge (arcana), Sense Motive and Spellcraft, for even better anti-mage tactics...and instead of Great Fortitude and Iron Will, dropping some Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot

So, they get +1 to hit and damage, and can fire into melee without penalties, as a solo monster? Wow, I can totally see how that could totally own a bunch of PCs. My apologies. It's definitely worth the -2 to Fort & Will saves.

A prepared wizard should not be getting fried by eye rays, except if the dice go really badly against him. That is not to say that the rest of the party is going to do so well. I'm just speaking to the relative invulnerability of a reasonably defensive wizard.

 

[InfernalistGamer]

Okay, laying this out in order of your arguments, some solid, some rather thin...

The wizard and cleric should have a few Dispel Magics (or Greater DM) for just such an eventuality. They did realize they were up against a beholder before they kicked in the door, right? I generally assume that players will be at least minimally prepared for tough encounters, and spellcasters in my games know that without a good supply of Dispels, they'll have a much worse time fighting other spellcasters.

Show me the mage who can cast dispel magic in an anti-magic cone, and I'll concede this one in a heartbeat. Honestly, it's why the cone is -there-, to stop the be-all-end-all mage from being able to ruin the beholder's plans so easily. And if the beholder's aiming the cone at the fighter instead, or some other strangeness, then something's wrong.

Player: What was the spot check to notice the trap in the ceiling?
DM: Um... 50?
Player: Okay, rocks fall, we all die. Never thought I'd actually see that in a real game. Anyone want to dump this jerk and find a DM that isn't out to get us and plays by the rules?

Let's look at this one -without- the sarcasm. A simple trap door in a ceiling, even a jarringly obvious wooden one in a stone ceiling, has a pretty high spot DC in a dark-to-pitch-black 30' high room. If you have the dwarven fighter/rogue with the darkvision 60ft. in there doing his job, he points it out, and no big deal. You don't have to make a trap insane, simplicity and realism are good enough. Reflex save versus falling objects damage, equal to the maximum volume of the beholder's telekinesis. After all, if it's his trap, he has to keep reloading it. And if your party whines because the monsters can set traps, they should go back to smiting trolls. To say it in lolcat form: Intelligent monster is intelligent.

Assuming you're not just dropping the ceiling on the players without giving them a chance to spot the trap, but are actually trying to hit them with a thrown object, you must roll to hit. If you can't hit the wizard with a ray because of the Mirror Images, you can't hit him with a thrown statue either.

Again, anti-magic cone, Mister Wizard's Mirror Image (and mage armor, protection from arrows, shield, you name it) has gone the way of my cable during a hurricane. Lobbed petrified rogue has standard Telekinesis attack roll. May the gods have mercy on your AC.

Do most 9th level characters not have access to the Fly spell? Or bows? I notice that spells don't usually care whether your target is on the ground.

Most don't have flight that operates in an anti-magic cone...after the mage is toast, those repetitive 30ft drops onto broken masonry(see petrified teammates/previous parties) are going to feel alot like spiked pit traps till they get it through their heads that [5 ft. adjust back from meleer, slow eye/flesh to stone eye/disintegrate eye as free action, then turn anti-magic eye on him] makes for a bad day. And as for the bows, see Flyby Attack and other anti-will tactics, like beating the little elf ranger against the wall with telekinesis till you make the illithid in the next room sad you spilled his lunchtray.

Well, except for the rules.

"A beholder can tilt and pan its body each round to change which rays it brings to bear in any given arc." I'll give you that your argument on this one is entirely viable, as we're not clear whether this is the "up" of the battlefield, or the "up" of the rotating beholder. So, I'll leave this one to individual rulings by DMs.

So, they get +1 to hit and damage, and can fire into melee without penalties, as a solo monster? Wow, I can totally see how that could totally own a bunch of PCs. My apologies. It's definitely worth the -2 to Fort & Will saves.

+1 to hit is a big deal at times, but I'm really laying the groundwork for 1 HD of advancement. At 12HD, take Improved Precise Shot, and ignore anything less than full cover. If you're not going to do that, sure, keep the saving throw bonuses instead.

A prepared wizard should not be getting fried by eye rays, except if the dice go really badly against him. That is not to say that the rest of the party is going to do so well. I'm just speaking to the relative invulnerability of a reasonably defensive wizard.

A wizard should not be aimed at with eye rays, as they can't work in the cone either. He should be dealing with incoming halfling-shaped masonry. With all his "reasonably defensive" spells as useful as a paper bag in a blade barrier, he should be summarily executed with the swiftness, while the other eye-rays keep the rest of the party at bay. Then, the cleric, then, keep the fighter and rogue as pets as they should be perma-charmed till they get uppity, then beaten against the walls like ragdolls with the telekinesis ray.