WotC Unveils Draft of New Open Gaming License

As promised earlier this week, WotC has posted the draft OGL v.1.2 license for the community to see.

A survey will be going live tomorrow for feedback.


The current iteration contains clauses which prohibit offensive content, applies only to TTRPG books and PDFs, no right of ownership going to WotC, and an optional creator content badge for your products.

One important element, the ability for WotC to change the license at-will has also been addressed, allowing the only two specific changes they can make -- how you cite WotC in your work, and contact details.

This license will be irrevocable.

The OGL v1.0a is still being 'de-authorized'.
 
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eyeheartawk

#1 Enworld Jerk™

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glass

(he, him)
And they're officially deauthorizing OGL 1.0a.
They are asserting that they can deauthorise 1.0a. Let's not repeat their propaganda as if it were fact.

That's not a lie. That's just their truth that people don't want to hear.
No, it's a lie. Because if controlling that was actually the reason, they would not be also releasing anything under CC-BY which lacks such controls. Unless that bit is the lie (which is probably is, but it could well be both).

Question (not just to you, but anyone who thinks this). If there are no changes in the new OGL except this part (and the contact part), then how is it a lie? What other reason is there to have a new OGL if this is the only change and it's a lie?
The question is based on a faulty premise, because even apart from the morality clause, the changes compared with 1.0a are humongous.

Okay, people smarter than me: why did they go with CC for the "core mechanics"?
To deflect attention from their continued monstrous actions in a way that does not actually cost the anything. Sadly, if this thread is any indication, it seems to be working.

Ugh. If I've learned one thing from all this nonsense, at least, it's this: when it comes to corporations, never ascribe to stupidity what you can attribute to malice.
The trouble with that particular saying (either way around) is that stupidity and malice very often go hand in hand.

Get to use the mechanics without rewording it with the CC, right? Without it, you get the mechanics (hopefully) but need to figure out how to express it so that it doesn't infringe, right?
The language of what is released under CC looks pretty vague. I would not trust this WotC not to sue over a perceived breach of it (assuming the CC thing actually happens of course - I get the feeling they are planning to claim that they got negative feedback over the CC offer so will not be going forward with it once they think enough dust has settled).

Honestly a pretty good article here finally. If they had just led with this, they honestly could have entirely avoided the past week+ firestorm.
I for one would still have seen all the toxicity and my reaction would have been pretty similar. But given all the people in this thread who seem to think this is a massive improvement you're probably right.

Given that WoTC has already had a long track record of increased representation in its products, and given that the majority of complaints regarding WoTC on-line come from people that are trying to make the game less inclusive ....
The first of those is highly debatable. The second if flat out false (and an unwarrented attack on a large number of your fellow posters).

Not for me personally. I will mention in the survey that this is the clause that needs work. Just remove themselves from determine what is hateful and I am basically good with it.
Removing their ability to determine what is a violation of the clause would risk making the licence actually irrevocable, which is the last thing they want.

that is plenty, not sure what you were expecting, but that is already more than we have today
No, it is a lot less than we have today. Today we have 23 years of open content and a licence that works pretty well. They are trying to destroy all that, but lets not play into their hands and pretend that they have already succeeded.
 


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The trouble is that the specific boilerplate provisions that you identified (and that I commented on) ... don't do that.

But sure, be cool about drinking milk.
Season 12 Abc GIF

If you've got a hankerin' to talk about the facts of the matter instead of talking about how extreme and controversial and cool my perspective is, then lets do that instead.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
If you've got a hankerin' to talk about the facts of the matter instead of talking about how extreme and controversial and cool my perspective is, then lets do that instead.

Fine. Start with the waiver of jury trial. Why is this standard provision some kind of wild and crazy idea to you?

Outside of merger and choice-of-law, it's about as bog-standard as you get.
 


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Fine. Start with the waiver of jury trial. Why is this standard provision some kind of wild and crazy idea to you?

Outside of merger and choice-of-law, it's about as bog-standard as you get.
Wild and crazy, eh? I said that? Wow, I am just out of control, clearly.

What I remember saying is that just because it's standard doesn't mean that it's a good idea here. So let's talk about that. It is my actual point, after all.

To elaborate a bit, I don't think that "it's standard" is a sufficient reason for it to be in the OGL. I mean, WotC already went through that with the clause about how they own your works. Standard stuff, for sure. Not really a good idea for the OGL.

So, if the baseline assumption is that being "standard" is not sufficient for being part of the OGL, what else justifies its inclusion?
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Wild and crazy, eh? I said that? Wow, I am just out of control, clearly.

What I remember saying is that just because it's standard doesn't mean that it's a good idea here. So let's talk about that. It is my actual point, after all.

To elaborate a bit, I don't think that "it's standard" is a sufficient reason for it to be in the OGL. I mean, WotC already went through that with the clause about how they own your works. Standard stuff, for sure. Not really a good idea for the OGL.

A back-license is not standard.

So, if the baseline assumption is that being "standard" is not sufficient for being part of the OGL, what else justifies its inclusion?

Because litigation is expensive. Jury trials (which are guaranteed in civil trials in federal court, and common in state civil matters) raise the cost. This applies to both Hasbro and the 3PPs. It doesn't give any substantive rights away- you still get a bench trial, and it's not like being forced into arbitration.

That justifies it. So, again, where is the WILD AND CRAZY that makes this terrible stuff? I would note that you haven't actually made any substantive points about the actual clause of the effect, by the way. Please, feel free- why is the waiver of jury trial just beyond the pale for you?
 


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
A back-license is not standard.
I've seen it in multiple unrelated contracts in my life, for just the reason WotC has said they included it: to protect one party from the other accusing them of stealing an idea they independently developed.

So it looks pretty standard from where I'm sitting. Common enough that I've seen it repeatedly and I am just some dude on the internet.

Because litigation is expensive. Jury trials (which are guaranteed in civil trials in federal court, and common in state civil matters) raise the cost. This applies to both Hasbro and the 3PPs. It doesn't give any substantive rights away- you still get a bench trial, and it's not like being forced into arbitration.

That justifies it. So, again, where is the WILD AND CRAZY that makes this terrible stuff? I would note that you haven't actually made any substantive points about the actual clause of the effect, by the way. Please, feel free- why is the waiver of jury trial just beyond the pale for you?
I haven't said anything is beyond the pale or wild and crazy, have I? I mean, I get that it's easier to characterize me as irrational if I had, but, maybe for the sake of argument, assume that I am a partner in this conversation and not just trying to win an internet argument. Maybe take it down a notch or two.

Stay Calm Chill Out GIF by New Amsterdam


I don't think "it saves everyone money" is a sufficient reason for including it. Especially since if both parties wanted to avoid a jury trial in the future, they could still agree to not do that. It doesn't HAVE to be in the OGL itself for it to be a thing that reasonable parties still agree to do.

So I'm back at: what justifies its inclusion here?
 

Dreamscape

Crafter of fine role-playing games
are you (and those publishers) ready to walk away if we can't get a better deal?
It seems almost all, perhaps actually all, 3PPs have already walked away. I have not seen anyone willing to accept that WotC have the right to deauthorise 1.0a, nor to agree with the proposed 1.1. or 2.0. So far all the positive takes on WotC's propaganda machine seem to be coming from non-publishers.
 

I've seen it in multiple unrelated contracts in my life, for just the reason WotC has said they included it: to protect one party from the other accusing them of stealing an idea they independently developed.
blockbuster used to have in (I think only for management but not sure)
My buddy was weirded out having to sign something saying if they made something like his art or work it was not something he could sue over... we all joked they were coming for our 2 1/2 year vampire campaign.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I don't think "it saves everyone money" is a sufficient reason for including it. Especially since if both parties wanted to avoid a jury trial in the future, they could still agree to not do that. It doesn't HAVE to be in the OGL itself for it to be a thing that reasonable parties still agree to do.

So I'm back at: what justifies its inclusion here?

What justified the governing law? What justifies a merger clause?

What justifies any term of a contract? I told you what justifies it- saving money. That is enough. Arguably, one might say that bench trials are also better in matters involving contracts and IP as well.

Again, you haven't provided a single reason why it shouldn't be there. Just ... nothings. It is beyond frustrating when you are provided actual reasons for the inclusion of language and you're like, "So what if it saves money and that's why it's there."

If you want to have a conversation, maybe contribute something. Otherwise, perhaps there is a reason people don't talk to bananas.
 

It seems almost all, perhaps actually all, 3PPs have already walked away. I have not seen anyone willing to accept that WotC have the right to deauthorise 1.0a, nor to make use of the proposed 1.1. or 2.0. So far all the positive takes on WotC's propaganda machine seem to be coming from non-publishers.
so if they all walked away and are useing a new licence who are we fighting for?

My understanding up until now has been we were fighting for Green ROnin, Enpub, and Piazo... if they have all already walked away what is left to fight for?
 

It seems almost all, perhaps actually all, 3PPs have already walked away. I have not seen anyone willing to accept that WotC have the right to deauthorise 1.0a, nor to make use of the proposed 1.1. or 2.0. So far all the positive takes on WotC's propaganda machine seem to be coming from non-publishers.
Yeah, the trust is broken. This is more about saving what has already been built, and our collective rights in that body of work. I don't think anyone really wants to do any new business with WotC going forward, no matter the terms.
 

Dreamscape

Crafter of fine role-playing games
so if they all walked away and are useing a new licence who are we fighting for?
This is more about saving what has already been built, and our collective rights in that body of work. I don't think anyone really wants to do any new business with WotC going forward, no matter the terms.
That. The utter public humiliation of Hasbro and WotC sounds like a pretty good goal, too.
 

so if they all walked away and are useing a new licence who are we fighting for?

My understanding up until now has been we were fighting for Green ROnin, Enpub, and Piazo... if they have all already walked away what is left to fight for?
There is 20+ years of accumulated OGC that we all have the right to use under a perpetual, royalty-free license. That's huge. Sadly, most of it depends on WotC's contributions to that body of work, and it would require the licensing regime to stay as is. We have nothing to gain by negotiating a "better deal", and this isn't a negotiation anyway. It's more like robbery.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
okay correct me if I am wrong (and I am honestly asking here, this is not some weird argument in the form of a question)
If Pathfinder and Level up (as I understand them) have classes of there own and Monsters and Spells of there own, what else is needed?
A lot of their classes AND monsters are from the SRD in some fashion. The Level Up Monstrous Menagerie is simply full of such creatures, for example.
 

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