D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era. I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to...

Status
Not open for further replies.
darksuntrouble-1414371970.jpg

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Zardnaar

Legend
I get it, but I've also heard a lot of people who identify as "old school players" claim that avoiding 90% of combats and running away is an essential part of the game, and they hate "invincible adventurers" who actually fight most enemies and win!

I'm kinda old school we used to fight just gotta be more careful about it.

If you optimised 1E and B/X eg if the net existed in early 80's loot and scoot might be the optimal play idk.

It's not as grindy as 5E I suppose.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
That's rather bad news for all DARK SUN fans who wanted to see it supported in current and future editions will be disappointed if this is ever officialized.

Perhaps what they could do is just publish a companion book to update mechanic to 5E ?
 

So here's the thing.

You identified the real issue.

Slavery is not the issue. Slavery could easily be X'd out and replaced with just indentured servitude or really unfair working conditions or whatever. Historically far more people were kept in serfdom than slavery, and there's really not a huge difference between slavery in 90% of humanity's history and serfdom (with US chattel slavery actually being one of the most bizarre and outré forms of slavery).

But if you remove the climate change and the small number of extremely wealthy and powerful individuals running everything, then it's truly not Dark Sun. And guess what? That's WotC are way too chicken for. They're scared of doing a setting that's relevant, meaningful, or has anything to say. They're terrified of being in even the slightest way controversial. It's not "extraordinarily hard" at all - it would be extremely straightforward. But making a Dark Sun that's uncontroversial? That's "inclusive" to climate change deniers and people who love billionaires? That's impossible.
I don't think the climate change should be removed.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I love this idea, but I think you're really overestimating how smart people are, and how many would make the connection. Fox News etc. certainly would not
The people who work in Cable New Network Corporations are smart people and skilled at creating drama from little corners of the world.

There are so many landmines to avoid that it isn't worth the effort unless Dark Sun guaranteed tons of profit.

I mean, they are still doing old setting for nostalgia over making a new setting to make 2023's RPG audience. You think they want to grind to dig the bombs out of Dark Sun?

Nope
 

Is it? Or is it simple?

Its evil, actually Evil, and undeniably wrong.

How is it 'controversial' at all?

(sarcasm​

noun [ U ]

UK

/ˈsɑː.kæz.əm/ US

/ˈsɑːr.kæz.əm/


the use of remarks that clearly mean the opposite of what they say, made in order to hurt someone's feelings or to criticize something in a humorous way.)

it was a criticism, slavery is not even the worst theme addressed in dark sun and is less central than genocide.

You can get off your moral horse, knight of the obvious.
 

I don't think the climate change should be removed.

I'd be staggered if WotC is even considering the climate angle from a PR blowback point of view. I've seen absolutely zero evidence of any serious controversy over any bit of fictional entertainment media anywhere for talking about climate issues at all (and I've asked for examples in this thread). Plus, Dark Sun explicitly states that it's evil magicians causing climate change rather than any real-world cause, so the prospect seems even more far-fetched. Given the sort of demographic that WotC markets to trends younger and therefore more concerned about climate issues, this seems to me like a major case of inventing problems where no problem exists.
 

Reynard

Legend
I wonder how long it will be before WotC remove all jeopardy and violence from D&D and it turns into My Little Pony the role playing game.
If this sounds sell better,WotC should do from a business stand point.

And people that don't like it should buy their RPGs from folks who make ones that align with their preferences.

Loyalty to D&D and WotC when they aren't what you actually want is baffling.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Perhaps the people who want to run a Dark Sun campaign should just do what some others in this thread have done and adapt 5E or some other system to the setting themselves?

I always find it funny that they seem to have no problem taking shots at WotC for being lazy/scared/unskilled to do it... and yet they don't step up to the plate to do it either.
 

The people who work in Cable New Network Corporations are smart people and skilled at creating drama from little corners of the world.

There are so many landmines to avoid that it isn't worth the effort unless Dark Sun guaranteed tons of profit.

I mean, they are still doing old setting for nostalgia over making a new setting to make 2023's RPG audience. You think they want to grind to dig the bombs out of Dark Sun?

Nope
Honestly they're out of other settings that people much under 50 are actually nostalgic for at this point. And DS is (as PS is on the way) the only setting which has much of a legend around it among younger people. So I don't know about that.

But my actual expectation is we just get MtG settings or outside possibility of a painfully bland and underdeveloped new setting which appears to serve no purpose whatsoever but theoretical novelty.
 

I mean, is it really wrong though? When these settings were created, they were created with the rules of the game in mind, and they wanted the setting to reflect those rules. Hence why we get things like cataclysms, times of troubles, spellplagues, sunderings, and whatever else, radically changing the settings around because of a rules update.

I mean, let's look at Dark Sun with the 2e rules.

*While survival spells existed, they competed with other spells people wanted to use so they weren't used as often (or so I've been told in threads on this forum where people gripe about goodberry et. al, and I point out, "but we had those spells in AD&D!"). But TSR staff, unlike WotC staff, had no problems whatsoever printing several pages of "spell changes" to their settings in boxed sets (see also Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and Planescape).

*Magic items were assumed; increased rarity was offset by letting players have superhuman to godlike ability scores (20's for humans, up to 24 for a half giant). This was further augmented by:

*A Psionics system had been produced, and was directly integrated with the setting. Every character had at least one (and possibly more!) Psionic powers in addition to whatever else you wanted to do.

*TSR was also perfectly willing to create new classes at the drop of a hat to meet setting requirements. Thus the Defiler, who goes up levels faster than the Preserver, the Templar, non-spellcasting Bards, and so on. 5e's approach would make all these subclasses, which would mean they work much more like their parent class, and they would have to make Defilers stronger than other spellcasters (in an edition where most would argue spellcasters don't need serious buffs) to make it worth not just being a Preserver. Further, when DS was made, there were TWO arcane spellcasting classes that needed adjustment. One simply lost their magic. Now upthread, someone pointed out how many spellcasting subclasses exist in 5e; you'd have to ban the lot of them!

(I will admit that you could probably make Warlocks into Templars, which 4e kind of did, though the only allowed Patron is the Sorcerer-King).

If you create a setting to reflect rules elements, when those rules elements are drastically altered, the setting is no longer the same. Dark Sun runs counter to enough assumptions that 5e uses that after all the work needed to adapt it, it won't feel like 5e anymore. Since we know "how a game feels" is important, consider that. Maybe you are fine with that because you're ready for 5e to change drastically anyways. But does the majority think that way?

If you say "hey here's this great new 5e setting but...well, it's not going to feel like the game you're playing now" to people who actually like 5e the way it is...what then?

I use Eberron as an example in that Discord post because we know for a fact it was the first setting made with 3.5 in mind. Which is why subsequent iterations have felt hollow by comparison.

I see these as significant hurdles to the development of a Dark Sun that feels anything like the setting that was created for 2e. So the question you have to ask is, if the update is that different from either what it was or whatever new system you've adapted it from, who is the product for?

Old gamers who loved the old Dark Sun? Obviously not, they have their old books!

New gamers who love 5e? Why would they change?

Let's not forget the largest assumption of 5e: make products that the largest percentage of your fanbase will buy for maximum profit.
I'd say it is wrong, yeah.

You overestimate how much people care about rules as physics.

And the main target audience is people who want something new, not the nostalgia crowd. DS specifically has a legend around it with younger D&D players who never played it, that most settings do not (Greyhawk does not, for example). The idea that nobody wants new things or change is pretty funny honestly.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top