D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

@Bedrockgames - that quote you provided actually dovetails pretty well with the whole subject vs object discussion. Note, the quote tells us that your character will be better in every measurable way. Stronger, more intelligent, more resiliant. The fact that your character is the product of generations of forced rape and murder of "defective" children is ignored. Which is what the Mul are.

Dark Sun isn't "about" eugenics. Eugenics is just the excuse for having higher powered characters - and note, since we're talking AD&D stats, having a 20 stat is godlike in nature. This isn't d20 D&D where a 20 Con is just a smidgeon better than an 18. A 20 constitution makes you virtually unkillable as you now have regeneration. Wahoo!

And, again, "censorious" voices? No. That's NEVER been the issue. Look, it's fairly simple. Do you agree with removing strength limits for female characters? That's just as "censorious". Before, people who complained were just flat out ignored and because the majority controlled every single channel for communication, the ignored voices were safely locked away.

What has changed is those people who want to be in the hobby are now in a position where they aren't being ignored. See, that's the problem with comparisons to censorship. The whole Satanic Panic was a misinformation campaign to stop other people from playing the game. Now, this is people who are in the hobby directly telling you that these sorts of things are not a whole lot of fun. That getting a bust of Lovecraft for winning the World Fantasy Award. Yeah, that's not telling people that they're unwelcome at all.

You claim that the atmosphere has changed?

Good.

Creating and fostering an atmosphere where creative people are regularly in fear that their ideas will lead to public condemnation, directly leading to less variety as RPG makers trend towards the least offensive thing they can think of because anything else is too dangerous?  That's a good thing?

 

[Bedrockgames]

I didn't identify that passage as problematic, you did (though I concur). And this is not like a work of art by an author who might have a history of using very subtle irony that demands familiarity with their work to appreciate it. There is none of that context here. I'm a language and literature teacher, I can spot irony. That text is flatly descriptive with no hint of irony.

Again I think that line, to a gamer familiar with the lines at the time at the time, definitely came off as ironic. I am not a teacher do people can take as they want to and I am not the final arbiter of analysis here: so folks should make their own judgment. But this also wasn’t just my opinion of the passage. This is how most people I gamed with interpreted it (again I think there is an obvious “those other campaign worlds” tone that is too over the top to be purely descriptive IMO

one reason I mentioned that passage is I think while it is clearly ironic, I can definitely see how some might not see it that way because there is enough ambiguity to it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Incidentally, I also don't see a ton of irony in the "Number of the Beast" lyrics - to me they are a sort of stream of consciousness description of a narrator being drawn into evil. That is a dark theme but not expressly ironic.

All I meant as my was the chorus section isn’t Bruce saying what he believes. He is speaking in the voice of the narrator, which isn’t obvious when you first hear it or when people would quote it as proof it was satanic. But it is also over the top abd a little reduculous (I think intentionally). I.E he isn’t literally saying that the number of the beast is the one for you and me. By the same token I think the passage in that dark sun text is not meant to be interpreted literally but part of how messed up the setting is and as a joke about throwing shade at other campaign settings (there is WWE wrestling quality to it I think)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Your point about problematic art still potentially having merit is valid, and "Number of the Beast" is a good example. At the same time, I think we can appreciate why Hasbro would not particularly want the world's most popular RPG exploring ideas from the eugenics movement (not that that passage really explores anything; as Hussar points out, it just accepts those ideas as a given, which is what makes it particularly troublesome). I don't think we are losing content, because you can still access and use the original content if you desire. But it makes sense that as our perspectives and tastes evolve, our art evolves as well, and that includes our games.

It is a matter of perspective but I would say it is leading to less interesting settings. As far as su can tell no one thinks dark sun is actually advocating anything bad, they are just using these ideas to give the setting it’s flavor and it is definitely one of if not the most interesting setting to cone out from that era. Absolutely it is still available and that is a good thing but the fact that WOTC won’t even touch its most interesting setting for an updated version, I think speaks volumes about how much we are being driven towards a more pablum direction by either mixing this stuff altogether or filing off all the rough edges (at least as far as WOTC goes but I think it is impacting the hobby as a whole).

Of course perspectives and tastes change but they can change for the worse when it comes to art. They can also be well intentioned but misguided. I think we have moved in directions that feel very uncharitable and narrow minded, even cruel at times when anyone or any publisher is perceived as not being 100% in line with a fairly Byzantine system of etiquette that underlies these new sensibilities.

 

[Clint_L]

I think you are reading a lot into these texts in order to help them fit comfortably into your world view. You are being very charitable in your interpretation of texts that don't seem super subtle, which again is a credit to you. Still, this suggests that maybe Dark Sun contains ideas that don't really need to be revisited through a 2023 update. It's okay to like something while accepting that it is of its time and should probably stay there.

 

[Clint_L]

Following up, I think the setting could potentially be re-used but not without serious revision and a shift in perspectives. For example, I am a huge fan of Lovecraftian horror, but it's no secret that his views on race and gender were yikes, and are resonant themes in his writing. But those themes aren't what I want from Lovecraftian horror; I want want the cosmic terror without all the gross racism and misogyny. And lots of modern authors give me this.

So a Dark Suns reboot that does that kind of a retrofit could be cool. I just don't see Hasbro wanting to touch it, but I could see a 3PP doing something cool with it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think you are reading a lot into these texts in order to help them fit comfortably into your world view. Again, this suggests that maybe Dark Sun contains ideas that don't really need to be revisited through a 2023 update.

I don’t believe so. I can find fault with stuff I like. And I do think at first that passage seems most alarming (much more do than including slavery). However it’s my honest to God conclusion. You might not agree with it, which is fair. We can reach s different conclusion. But I don’t think I am reading too deeply to get there

But I also remember birthright, and that setting, if I recall correctly had different ability score modifiers for human ethnicities. That was something that did bother me, and I don’t think was ironic (and I am pretty sure they gave negative intelligence modifiers to stand ins for African ethnicities). That said it has been a long time. I may have misunderstood something if misinterpreted but the point is it was my conclusion about a setting that cage out in roughly the same period when I had the reaction to dark sun. Or take metal: Iron Maiden didn’t mean it but with the emergence of things like black metal there were bands who did. I listened to some of those bands, but I strongly disagree with their messages and wouldn’t have defended them as being ironic the way I defend Iron Maiden. But it can get blurry because it’s art and you don’t always know what is being done to create a sense of shock versus what is the person’s sincerely held beliefs, so I think it is important to always be able to have an open conversation about it (some people might look at a band I think is saying something horrible and argue they are actually making opposite point)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Following up, I think the setting could potentially be re-used but not without serious revision and a shift in perspectives. For example, I am a huge fan of Lovecraftian horror, but it's no secret that his views on race and gender were yikes, and are resonant themes in his writing. But those themes aren't what I want from Lovecraftian horror; I want want the cosmic terror without all the gross racism and misogyny. And lots of modern authors give me this.

So a Dark Suns reboot that does that kind of a retrofit could be cool. I just don't see Hasbro wanting to touch it, but I could see a 3PP doing something cool with it.

I think with Lovecraft my approach is to read him despite some of his views. But I also try not to read race and ethnicity into everything he does. Sometimes I think because it’s present in his writing it becomes the ultimate explanation for everything he does. But there is also clearly stuff in there that is not in line with how we think about these things. I deal with that the same way I do as when su read anything written in last: I still enjoy it but understand it was written in a very different time (can in fact be a useful window in that time) and by a person who was seriously flawed. Part if this may be I was a history student do the idea of analyzing and enjoying primary sources that contain lots of outdated ideas is something I am pretty comfortable with

With RPGs I am a lot less concerned unless his racial ideas are being advocated. So if there is something that made it’s way into Lovecraftian horror as a genre, and originally might have stemmed from some view of his about the purity of English bloodlines, but that trope has lost that connotation for people, I have no problem with it being in an RPG. Especially if it is interesting. Someone advocating his views about race in an RPG is something I would find distasteful though. Not an RPG I would buy

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I hate Nietzsche's idea about Übermensch. According him, the Übermensch (in German languange all names start with capital letters) is any body who doesn't worry about mercy or solidarity, "the ethical values of the slaves" but he follows his own code. All those words are to describea a psycopath. Joffrey Barantheon, the character from "Game of Thrones", or his mother Cersei Lannister, are good example of "Übermensch".

We can agree the speculative fiction shouldn't be used of Overton window for supremacist ideas. All society or civilitation who doesn't obey the "Natural Law" is doomed to self-destruction. If you are stronger, faster or smarter doesn't matter too much when you are wasting your time and resourcers in stupid civil wars for the power and hegemony.

I imagine Dark Sun as daylight grimmdark in the cover, but hopepunk in the deep. The bad guys are ruling, but they will fall, and step by step Athas will be green again. MAGA = MAKING ATHAS GREEN AGAIN. Really the ecological recovery of Athas would be easier and faster but the sorcerer-kings would rather to rule in the hell than serving in the paradise. And there is a fear by the ordinary population about suffering the "tall poppies syndrome" or “the nail that sticks out gets hammered down”. In the Athasian tablelands the psionic is allowed, but wanted to be totally controlled by the state.

* It would be really funny if Dreamworks dared to produce a kid-friendly animated parody of Dark Sun.

* I am thinking about allowing spending psionic power points for arcane magic of the school illusion, adivination or abjuration. And single-use magic item can be crafted without defiler effects.

* Other idea I am thinking is a parallel timeline where something happened. Rajaats and the champions cursed each other, and now the Athasian tablelands are a merger of the material plane and the dark domains. Vecna, Azalin Rex and the cult of the elder elemental eye also acted here. The curse of the sorcerer-kings is something like the punishment suffered by Tantalus. They are new domains could be conquered, but they can't exit beyond of the Tablelands, and if they are for a long time out of the cities, there are serious trobles when they return.

* How would be the social impact if the lifeshape craft/biotech was recovered?

What about "harupex" a (sub)class about body modification?

*

 

[Scribe]

Again, people are telling you quite clearly that they feel excluded from the hobby. They aren’t being coy. They aren’t beating around the bush. They are very explicitly, directly telling you why.

So a single hypothetical book being released with content you personally find exclusionary, means you are excluded from the hobby. The whole hobby, despite there being more content that you (I assume) dont find exclusionary than you can likely consume in a lifetime?