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D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era. I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to...

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In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.
 

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Something else not mentioned. They just did Dark Sun in 4e. I know, I know, that was a while ago...

I wasn't the biggest 4E fan but I played in a 4E Dark Sun campaign and remember quite liking it. I can't comment on how well they handled the lore in the books, as I was just a player, but the GM who was running it felt it was exceptionally good. On my side of the screen it was very engaging and entertaining.
 

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Remathilis

Legend
I guess Dark Sun can join Mystara and Birthright in the "too convoluted, controversial and/or niche" to bother with.

Then again, I'd rather use Primeval Thule over Dark Sun any day of the week.
 

pemerton

Legend
It had what now? I didn't play 4E Darksun so I have no idea what you're talking about here. What was in it?
Page 156:

Gulg persists as it always has: simple, unchanging, and devoted to its queen.

Gulg is a city only in the loosest definition of the term; it consists of a cluster of forest villages enclosed by a single wall. Most buildings are made of thatch or mud, and roads are little more than trampled earth, worn down by the feet of generations.​

There's plenty more in the same general vein.
 

I fine with official D&D being the brand based around friendly, non-controversial, PG-13 acts of ultraviolence. It's the big tent brand, the gateway brand, and it's best it strive to be appropriate to the broadest set of sensibilities and we live in an era of censorship-oriented culture.

I am especially okay with it because I see official D&D as being a shrinking part of the 5e ecosystem in the coming clone age.

It's just a shame that an IP that people care about is being sealed away in the WotC vault. If they have decided they are going to do nothing with it than send it to the creative commons post haste! Then someone else can dive into the controversy, and in all likelihood produce products compatible with their game, expanding the value of their game.

Or at the very least the next time someone tries to kickstart a too obvious Dark Sun with the serial numbers filed off, let it be rather than sending your legal department after them. Shutting down Red Dawn is one thing if you think you might concievably do something with the Dark Sun IP (it was a really blatant rip off, WotC was well within their rights). But don't just be an IP dragon protecting a giant IP hoard just so you can sleep on it forever.
 

OldOwlbear

Explorer
Maybe? But I can see the point @I'm A Banana is making. For people still fighting the downside of slavery's legacy, having it come up in RPGs, even if intended to allow for players to vicariously oppose slavery through their PCs, may be hitting a little too close to home. Their trauma really isn't everyone else's playground.

I get the argument you and others in this thread are making and I respect the intention, but I have to push back at it from it another angle. At which point is something useable as a plot element again? I speak as someone who survived the genocide in Bosnia and lost family to it, and I do not want to watch anything set in Bosnia due to the sense of loss. However, I would never want people to pressure writers or creators to stay away from the Bosnian war in particular or genocide in general as a story element.

First, I believe it’s the responsibility of the audience to pick what they are an audience to, not for a creator to limit what they will or will not touch based on possible backlash. If they don’t want to touch a subject, that’s fine. But feeling pressured to not express their creativity as they wish is extremely detrimental to creative and free expression. It’s not about other people’s trauma being a playground, it’s about the reality that everyone will have different reactions to different topics, and media should not be expected to appeal to everyone. Otherwise we are forcing creative industries down a path of endless homogenization purely because their business instincts are alert to public shaming.

Secondly, there will always be story elements that are not to other people’s tastes. War in general, crime, pandemics - should companies be pressured to avoid those subjects because they may not be comfortable for some people? Narrative of any kind relies on conflict - that’s how human beings have told stories for millennia. Conflict inevitably relies on topics that the audience is meant to be against or offended by. It’s our way of confronting scary or difficult issues within the safety of fiction. It can empower us, teach us, or just give us an escape to a world where real issues exist, but can be overcome through a protagonist’s action.

Lastly, D&D is built from the ground up around conflict. Its rules are mostly about combat, and every rule is about overcoming antagonistic forces. How can you convincingly create an antagonistic force if you are limited to what doesn’t disturb people? Again, everyone will have a subject matter they don’t want to touch, and that’s okay. But we should not normalize companies and artists being pressured into sterilizing their content to make people feel comfortable.

One additional perspective I’d put forward. Let’s say this is WotC not wanting to offend people due to climate change/class war implications in the setting. It erases the reality of those issues and curtails the expression of its authors who may legitimately want to express their concerns around those topics. But this may anger people who do not believe those issues exist (I would strongly disagree with those folks). Conversely, in time - even our lifetime - the consequences of climate change and class war will result in very real trauma for many people. Should those topics not be explored in fiction because they are very real and current issues for many people? Bringing it back to topics of slavery and genocide; at which point is it sensitivity, and at which point is it erasure of history and the important lessons it holds? The vast majority of lessons from the past have been taught through fiction. Why would we stop now?
 

wellis

Explorer
Why would we stop now?
Because it may offend everyone in some manner and someone on either side of the aisle will attempt to stir up controversy on social media.

Honestly in retrospect, I think they're right more and more.

People probably don't actually want settings like this.
 


I was recently asked if you could run Dark Sun in 5e by my play group. This was my response (copied from our Discord):

[12:18]James:
hell no
[12:20 PM]James: The setting relies on fundamental assumptions that are pretty alien to 5e; a harsh wasteland where survival is difficult if not impossible, people running around with low quality equipment made of bone or stone due to meager supplies of copper or iron ore, arcane magic being actively dangerous to use, half-dwarves and half-giants created by forced breeding, slavery, cannibalistic halflings, and above all else, actual psionics.
[12:22 PM]James: sometimes a setting is a product of it's time; the 4e Dark Sun was a mess (ditto for 4e Eberron, a setting that was specifically designed with 3e rules in mind).
[12:23 PM]James: oh and 5e Eberron as well; how do you have a setting with a magitechnological industrial age where artificers make magical devices when your system barely supports magic items? lol
You can fix the Muls and Half-Giants, and the cannibalistic halflings don't need fixing, but the rules issues definitely mean stock 5E can't cut it, if you want "classic Dark Sun" (which isn't what I'd expected, personally). You'd need rules for:

1) Low-quality equipment - lots of people have interesting house rules there.

2) Defiling - You'd need to actively define what Arcane magic was and create a defiling ruleset that didn't make it just "equal but different" to normal Arcane magic, but more powerful - creating a balance issue, albeit an intentional one.

3) Psionics, which would mean a 3PP add-on given WotC seem to have kind of given up rather pathetically here.

It's doable, so "hell no" only works if you mean "stock" 5E, no house rules, no 3PP material and classic Dark Sun, but it's significant effort.

Re: Eberron, by that logic, basically every setting only works in the edition it was made for, with the possible ironic exception of Planescape. That just seems like overstating a problem for effect.
 

ChaosOS

Legend
You can fix the Muls and Half-Giants, and the cannibalistic halflings don't need fixing, but the rules issues definitely mean stock 5E can't cut it, if you want "classic Dark Sun" (which isn't what I'd expected, personally). You'd need rules for:

1) Low-quality equipment - lots of people have interesting house rules there.

2) Defiling - You'd need to actively define what Arcane magic was and create a defiling ruleset that didn't make it just "equal but different" to normal Arcane magic, but more powerful - creating a balance issue, albeit an intentional one.

3) Psionics, which would mean a 3PP add-on given WotC seem to have kind of given up rather pathetically here.

It's doable, so "hell no" only works if you mean "stock" 5E, no house rules, no 3PP material and classic Dark Sun, but it's significant effort.

Re: Eberron, by that logic, basically every setting only works in the edition it was made for, with the possible ironic exception of Planescape. That just seems like overstating a problem for effect.
Savage Worlds handles all three of these really well, especially with the new Fantasy Companion. My two-years-and-running weekly Dark Sun game has thrived in that system.

Meanwhile, my Friday Eberron 5e game works just fine; not every game in the setting needs crafting (The pulpy Indiana Jones/Mummy/National Treasure inspired ones), but for my current one I'm using Kibbles Compendium of Craft and Creation.
 

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