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WotC_PeterS talks about his "aggresive playtest" (with Le Rouse, SKR, & Noonan)

hexgrid said:
Almost all concepts on this basic of a level carry over from 3e to SWSE (and presumable 4e) with even less of a mechanical difference.

I agree that the basic "how to succeed" mechanics were equivalent from 1E, 2E, 3E; no big changes. It's all the other stuff in 4E that finally do constitute big changes. Starting with, for example, fighters not improving "to hit" by +5% every level, for the first time ever. There you have a distinct systemic change in probabilities.
 

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Fifth Element said:
I personally don't care if the system can be broken by the Char Op types - that's what they do, and they will do it some degree regardless of the system and how much it's been playtested. I care more about how the general playing public plays the game. If they have to decide between a rule that's easy and fun to play and one that resists abuse by dedicated abusers, they should go with easy and fun every time.

True, but that's a choice one seldom has to make. It's usually possible to tweak a rule so that it's both fun and abuse-resistant. The problem is knowing which rules to tweak.

The value of the CharOp boards for playtesting purposes is that they identify both the ridiculous exploits (Pun-Pun) and the genuine problems that affect play at all levels of skill (caster superiority at high levels). One can just roll one's eyes at the Pun-Puns of the game, but caster superiority is a problem not limited to obsessive optimizers.

And even Pun-Pun serves a purpose, albeit a small one; the essential ingredient in the Pun-Pun exploit is a monster mechanic so ill-defined and badly worded that it's hard to imagine an interpretation of it that doesn't lead to trouble. The CharOp boards correctly identified this as a problem mechanic. Should WotC ever decide to issue errata to the obscure Forgotten Realms sourcebook the exploit is from, I expect they know they ought to do something about the Sarrukh (though they might leave it as is just for amusement value).
 

small pumpkin man said:
Absolutely, thank you for taking the time to talk to us Obsessive Internet Fans.

I have a another question, does this
2170.jpg

mean Fighters are getting lazer swords and mind powers? There better not be any of that anime crap in my D&D.
I think it just has to do with company policy at Hasbro. No bladed items in the bureau rooms, since that incident with the Secretary, the letter opener and the "forgotten" pay rise in 1987.
 

David Noonan responds for a second time in his blog, this time to the question by SKR: OBM on number of playtesters. Will 4th edition approach the 500 of 3rd. Noonan says maybe, but its hard to compare:

Playtesting: As I was driving home last night, I thought of a couple other playtest-related things. First, back in that ENWorld thread, Sean Reynolds asks how big a list of external playtesters for 4e would be.

First, you'd think I'd have that list. But I don't. I've got some of it, Chris Tulach down in RPGAtopia has more, and Andy Collins has some names, too. We've had lots of different playtests with lots of different groups, and especially early on, keeping track of it all was catch-as-catch-can. Playtesting is something we got better at as we went along.

But because results pass through the wind tunnel that is my in-box, I might be the best person in the world to make an educated guess at the size of the list.

[Noonan takes long break to sift through playtest reports.]

To keep things reasonable, I'll count only people who knew they were playtesting a future edition of the game--playtesters for Book of Nine Swords, Star Wars Saga Edition, and Monster Manual V don't count. (Whether they should count is a different question, and an interesting one.) And I'm going to assume a table size of six for a few playtests where we had only the DM report in (which would make more sense if you knew what the test was). Doing some back-of-the-3x5-car d math, I think we're at something like 400 so far. Give me a plus/minus of 50 on that.

Well, hmm. That specific number is going to beg comparisons to 3rd edition playtesting. So it's important to deliver a caveat. The 4e playtesting methodology is a lot different than the 3e playtesting methodology was. Much of the 3e playtesting boiled down to "Here's the manuscript...tell us what you think." In some ways, that's a great playtest. Your testers are motivated (hell, they're frickin' elated!) and you get some great snapshots into ongoing play. Testers are often really good at big-picture issues that come up in an ongoing campaign--after all, they're staring at the future of their chosen hobby, so they ask some very pointed questions.

The other cool thing about that playtest methodology is you see what people play when you give them the whole sandbox. If they collectively gravitate toward certain play styles and certain mechanical elements (classes, races, etc.), well, you just gained insight into a fundamental question of RPG design: "Will anyone care about this thing I'm making up?" But it's a double-edged sword. In an open playtest like that, you don't control what people actually test. If few people choose druids, for example, any issues with that class may remain unseen until you're done with playtesting. If few people engage in high-level play, then you don't get much feedback on the high-level experience.

The other problem with that playtest technique: Whoa, Nellie, is it duplicative. Mind-numbingly duplicative. The individual tables of testers never see it, but I'm pretty sure Kim Mohan's eyes glazed over after the 200th consecutive complaint about an early version of Weapon Focus. From the perspective of the individual tester, of course you'd want to spend a lot of time telling Wizards how Weapon Focus should work. But you don't--and can't--realize that it's wasted effort given that dozens of other tables are going to write the same thing, and poor Kim is going to spend hours reading every one of them. And our playtesters are volunteers with limited time, so that time writing the Weapon Focus treatise could have been spent checking out the druid's animal companion, for example.

We've done some of that "Here's the manuscript...tell us what you think" testing too. But in general, our testing is a lot more focused. We often want these specific PCs against those specific monsters. We want to see n builds of a x-level ranger. Even some really micro-level stuff--we watch you play to see how long it takes you to add up the dice on that damage roll, how long it took you to find that rule, and (one of my favorite questions) where you looked for it first.

So maybe at the end of the day, the number of external eyeballs on 4e will be something similar to the number of 3e eyeballs. But it's fundamentally an apples-and-oranges thing. Our 4e testing is using a fundamentally different appraoch. This makes the argument less fun, which is too bad.

And I'll end with my big-picture take on 4e playtesting: Nobody in the tabletop hobby industry does a better job playtesting than Wizards does. But I wish we playtested more. I think our games could be even better.

One of the things on my plate right now is an effort to do something about that--a pretty aggressive playtesting plan for the RPG products that will follow the core books. (Pro Tip: Join the RPGA and start participating.)
 

I need to thank Mr. Noonan for that write up. As an engineer (software engineer - but still...) I find the background workings of stuff like this to be very interesting. I am also pleased that they are thinking of asking stuff like 'where did you look for it first'. That alone might speed up play by a very large amount.
 

Dausuul said:
The value of the CharOp boards for playtesting purposes is that they identify both the ridiculous exploits (Pun-Pun) and the genuine problems that affect play at all levels of skill (caster superiority at high levels). One can just roll one's eyes at the Pun-Puns of the game, but caster superiority is a problem not limited to obsessive optimizers.

And even Pun-Pun serves a purpose, albeit a small one; the essential ingredient in the Pun-Pun exploit is a monster mechanic so ill-defined and badly worded that it's hard to imagine an interpretation of it that doesn't lead to trouble. The CharOp boards correctly identified this as a problem mechanic.
No, I have to agree with Fifth Element on this one. The happenings on the CharOp boards are largely irrelevant to actual play. As you point out, problems like caster superiority are not limited to CharOp boards. So you don't need CharOp boards to find them.

And the ability to "exploit" mechanics by combining multiple obscure optional rules under the assumption of infinite GM leniency has no bearing on actual play. Unless, of course, you actually do have an infinitely lenient GM, in which case you have correctly identified a problem GM, not a problem mechanic.
 

Epic Meepo said:
And the ability to "exploit" mechanics by combining multiple obscure optional rules under the assumption of infinite GM leniency has no bearing on actual play. Unless, of course, you actually do have an infinitely lenient GM, in which case you have correctly identified a problem GM, not a problem mechanic.
Most of the games I've played in or seen run by others allow any official material from WotC (barring setting-specific material from other settings in some cases) to be used by players. Not only is this SOP as far as my experience with the hobby goes, it should also be the SOP that WotC wants to encourage with its customers (the more games allowing all official material, the more demand there will be for that material). I'm actually a little flabbergasted that someone would suggest this is a problem with the DM's judgement. This is official material we're talking about, stuff published by the makers of D&D to be used specifically for the game of D&D. WotC intends for people to buy and use those products in their games and (unless I'm very much mistaken about their motives) they don't intend for said products to cause campaign-meltdown. Given that, the fact that there are game-breaking combos to be found within that officially published material would seems to indicate that someone at WotC should take the blame, not the individual DM who failed to personally review and playtest every official rulebook before allowing his players to use it.

Holding the DM accountable for not catching mistakes in a product that has (ostensibly) been playtested by the company who makes it seems downright unfair to me. :\
 

But you can't possibly hope for WoTC to test every possible combination of class, prestige class, feat, magic item, and spell. There are limits to what they can possibly do with the time they are allotted.
 

Shroomy said:
But you can't possibly hope for WoTC to test every possible combination of class, prestige class, feat, magic item, and spell.
But a single DM will?
Shroomy said:
There are limits to what they can possibly do with the time they are allotted.
That's exactly the same rationale given by DM's who decide to let all WotC material in, they (DM's with a shortage of time) don't have the time to test the limits of everything in the game so they decide to run a game as close to WotC-baseline as possible. Doing so means far lest stress-testing of the rules to make them fit something non-(WotC)standard because you are playing WotC standard.
 

Eric Anondson said:
But a single DM will? That's exactly the same rationale given by DM's who decide to let all WotC material in, they (DM's with a shortage of time) don't have the time to test the limits of everything in the game so they decide to run a game as close to WotC-baseline as possible. Doing so means far lest stress-testing of the rules to make them fit something non-(WotC)standard because you are playing WotC standard.

Oh, I'm not blaming DMs at all, nor do I expect them to catch every abusable combination. I was just pointing out that the expectation to catch every abusable combination was simply not attainable.
 

Into the Woods

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