WotC's Annual Xmas Layoffs

[Stoat]

Of course, what do I know. I'm just another one of those evil MBAs that this thread has spent page after page villifying in general terms.

It could be worse, I'm one of those nefarious lawyers who pull the strings from behind the scenes. But for my kind, there would be free .pdf's and candy for all!

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Of course, what do I know. I'm just another one of those evil MBAs that this thread has spent page after page villifying in general terms.

Not that I necessarily agree with your assessment of the situation in this thread, but to be fair, "those evil MBAs" have provided plenty of fodder for villifying in this situation.

EDIT: Forgot which thread this was - specific political and economic comments removed!

 

[TheAuldGrump]

For you. Opinions are not universal. One man's treasure is another man's trash.

However, there enough folks that do think that 4e is 'trash' (or at least 'not the game for me') that D&D is no longer the uncontested leader in the industry.

Which leads to an unhappy parent company.

Which leads to layoffs.

At least it does not seem to be a mass layoff this time.

Part is the economy, sales are down. The rest...?

The Auld Grump

 

[BryonD]

For you. Opinions are not universal. One man's treasure is another man's trash.

Did I say anything to imply otherwise?

I certainly don't expect you to have any duty to follow my postings. But if you got bored and dug around you would learn that while I am consistently highly critical of 4E's inability to compete with other system at delivering the game experience *I* enjoy, I've readily agreed on many events that it works great for people seeking a different experience.

And, honestly, I believe it required a bit of a chip on the shoulder to find that I was remotely suggesting anything universal in my post. Like maybe I hit a raw nerve since it *IS* true that love of 4E ain't anywhere near a universal opinion either. And really the point here isn't what do *you* like or what do *I* like but instead, what makes the biggest market appeal possible.

 

[Balesir]

I am consistently highly critical of 4E's inability to compete with other system at delivering the game experience *I* enjoy, I've readily agreed on many events that it works great for people seeking a different experience.

I acknowledge this, but one thing does puzzle me slightly; why do you restrict your criticism to 4E D&D?

I mean, I would expect that neither HeroQuest nor Burning Wheel - nor the Riddle of Steel nor Sorceror, for that matter - would be competent at delivering the game experience you want, either, and yet I don't see you crtitcising them at length?

 

[BryonD]

I acknowledge this, but one thing does puzzle me slightly; why do you restrict your criticism to 4E D&D?

I mean, I would expect that neither HeroQuest nor Burning Wheel - nor the Riddle of Steel nor Sorceror, for that matter - would be competent at delivering the game experience you want, either, and yet I don't see you crtitcising them at length?

No one is telling me that those games were supposed to replace the game I was playing.

I've been told, many times, that the only reason I didn't move from 3E to 4E was because I was "closed minded", or I feared change, or some very similar thing. I've also had people absolutely insist that 4E delivers an identical experience as 3E. As I've described in more detail several time in other threads, that is only true for a fraction of the gaming styles 3E supported.

Also

Because D&D is the flagship brand. (or at least it was) I've never talked about those other games in any context for any extended amount of time.

Also

This is a D&D website

Also

I like to argue. It's fun.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Did I say anything to imply otherwise?

It's all about the tone and delivery. Everything we say here is pretty much all opinion, but some posts come off stating opinion-as-fact, which is a little hard to interpret through a message board.

I certainly don't expect you to have any duty to follow my postings. But if you got bored and dug around you would learn that while I am consistently highly critical of 4E's inability to compete with other system at delivering the game experience *I* enjoy, I've readily agreed on many events that it works great for people seeking a different experience.

That something I don't get - this idea that playing 4e somehow means you are after a different experience than others who enjoy the hobby. I mean, sure, that is possible, but switching editions has not really affected how we (my group and I) play or approach the game. We still get the same experience we always did with story and roleplaying. The biggest difference, as most people are keen to point out, are the mechanics, and if anything, it's only served to magnify the other elements that we generally prefer to dungeon crawls and looting. I'm not sure what I'm missing here, since most of the folks with ideas about what people that like 4e are into, usually assumes that we're after a more gamist, dungeon-delve feel, and at least in all my (and a lot of the frequent posters in the 4e subforum) experience, that isn't the case at all. Maybe my group is just weird.

And, honestly, I believe it required a bit of a chip on the shoulder to find that I was remotely suggesting anything universal in my post. Like maybe I hit a raw nerve since it *IS* true that love of 4E ain't anywhere near a universal opinion either. And really the point here isn't what do *you* like or what do *I* like but instead, what makes the biggest market appeal possible.

I maybe do have a chip on my shoulder, but it has less or nothing to do what what you're saying - more like how you say it. Doesn't matter what the topic, I find the opinion-stated-as-fact approach annoying, I'll be honest.

As for 4e and market share/mass appeal, I couldn't care less what others think, so long as they don't suggest that things I like shouldn't exist (I am not saying you did, but others have implied this or downright stated it).

In the end, too, I am a firm believer that good=/= popular and popular =/= good. Mass appeal is not an endorsement of anything, in my book. I do get that it affects the bottom line, so I care insofar as whoever produces things I like has enough incentive to continue.

 

[Azgulor]

I think you're seeing something that isn't there. It's not necessarily anti-capitalist to critique a business for not taking the needs of its workers into account. There can be be legitimate differences about how to do that or what it entails, but nothing in what was said amounted even remotely to an "anti-capitalist screed"

I think you might want to read it again. It sure as hell sounded like anti-capitalist crap to me.

 

[BryonD]

It's all about the tone and delivery. Everything we say here is pretty much all opinion, but some posts come off stating opinion-as-fact, which is a little hard to interpret through a message board.

Again, the problem here is the chip on your shoulder.

Let me state again, very clearly:

I left AD&D for better games. I didn't go to 4E because there are better games.

Now, if you can't get past the two Is is that and find the opinion implicit in the statement then you are being touchy.

That something I don't get - this idea that playing 4e somehow means you are after a different experience than others who enjoy the hobby. I mean, sure, that is possible, but switching editions has not really affected how we (my group and I) play or approach the game. We still get the same experience we always did with story and roleplaying. The biggest difference, as most people are keen to point out, are the mechanics, and if anything, it's only served to magnify the other elements that we generally prefer to dungeon crawls and looting. I'm not sure what I'm missing here, since most of the folks with ideas about what people that like 4e are into, usually assumes that we're after a more gamist, dungeon-delve feel, and at least in all my (and a lot of the frequent posters in the 4e subforum) experience, that isn't the case at all. Maybe my group is just weird.

HA!!!

First, I think I ninja'ed your comments nicely. Thanks for the support there.

Second, you JUST said opinions are not universal and yet now you are expressing frustration that the gaming experience of everyone is not universal. I mean, seriously, is even trying to prove my position to you relevant?

How do you know that your 3E experiences and mine were the same? I'll readily agree that YOU may very well get the same experience from 4E that you did from 3E. But do you now claim that opinion as universal or do you agree that it is not?

I maybe do have a chip on my shoulder, but it has less or nothing to do what what you're saying - more like how you say it. Doesn't matter what the topic, I find the opinion-stated-as-fact approach annoying, I'll be honest.

Please show me where I stated an opinion-as-fact. Again, if you remove the chip from your shoulder you will find that stating one of a variety of things is "better" than related alternative to that thing is a very natural expression *of opinion*. Forcing an "as fact" reading into that statement with no basis for that twisting of statement is the fault of no one but you.

As for 4e and market share/mass appeal, I couldn't care less what others think, so long as they don't suggest that things I like shouldn't exist (I am not saying you did, but others have implied this or downright stated it).

And, again, that is *YOUR OPINION*, which I respect. But I wasn't even talking to you, so what does your opinion have to do with anything. This thread isn't about you.

In the end, too, I am a firm believer that good=/= popular and popular =/= good. Mass appeal is not an endorsement of anything, in my book. I do get that it affects the bottom line, so I care insofar as whoever produces things I like has enough incentive to continue.

I think making 10 people happy tends to be better than making 3 people happy. At least in the context of talking about a freaking GAME.

Also, there really is such thing as market forces, even when they prevail against you personally. Now, you could spend a very large pile of money and WotC would probably sell the design control of 5E to you personally. Then you opinion would actually BE the universe for this question.

Though I am more and more frequently gratified to see 4E fans making comments of this nature. The implications are amusing and they tend to validate statements I've been making for years. (fyi, just my opinion)

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Again, the problem here is the chip on your shoulder.

Let me state again, very clearly:

I left AD&D for better games. I didn't go to 4E because there are better games.

Yes, better - for you. The way this is stated does not reflect that at all.

Now, if you can't get past the two Is is that and find the opinion implicit in the statement then you are being touchy.

I think you're being deliberately provocative, then telling everyone else that it's THEiR problem when they call you on it. You said so yourself, you like to argue.

HA!!!

First, I think I ninja'ed your comments nicely. Thanks for the support there.

Second, you JUST said opinions are not universal and yet now you are expressing frustration that the gaming experience of everyone is not universal. I mean, seriously, is even trying to prove my position to you relevant?

I wouldn't call it frustration. I am just trying to understand what folks are referring to when they use statements like "delivering the game experience I want." Almost invariably, with no effort to explain just what that is. We could be talking about apples and oranges for all I know.

How do you know that your 3E experiences and mine were the same? I'll readily agree that YOU may very well get the same experience from 4E that you did from 3E. But do you now claim that opinion as universal or do you agree that it is not?

I don't and have never claimed it to be universal, but I did explain where I'm coming from WRT to the experience I've gotten from D&D from the beginning. Tell me what I'm missing from yours. I'm just trying to understand.

[quote[Please show me where I stated an opinion-as-fact. Again, if you remove the chip from your shoulder you will find that stating one of a variety of things is "better" than related alternative to that thing is a very natural expression *of opinion*. Forcing an "as fact" reading into that statement with no basis for that twisting of statement is the fault of no one but you.[/quote]Respectfully, I disagree. That said, you aren't likely to alter your manner of speaking/writing on my account, nor to avoid argument in the future (since, as you said, you enjoy it), so I'll just have to do a better job of tuning it out.

And, again, that is *YOUR OPINION*, which I respect. But I wasn't even talking to you, so what does your opinion have to do with anything. This thread isn't about you.

No one claims it is. It doesn't matter if you were talking to me or not - this is a public discussion where comment is open to all who wish to participate, which at that moment happened to include me.

I think making 10 people happy tends to be better than making 3 people happy. At least in the context of talking about a freaking GAME.

Also, there really is such thing as market forces, even when they prevail against you personally. Now, you could spend a very large pile of money and WotC would probably sell the design control of 5E to you personally. Then you opinion would actually BE the universe for this question.

Which, as I said, means nothing to me. Regardless of how many people line up on either side, that continues to tell me nothing of merit, certainly not how I will receive it, be it a game, or anything else for that matter.

Though I am more and more frequently gratified to see 4E fans making comments of this nature. The implications are amusing and they tend to validate statements I've been making for years. (fyi, just my opinion)

What statements would those be? Perhaps you could play some connect-the-dots for me? No obligation, of course, but without context it is s pretty meaningless statement. I'm bored, but I'm not THAT bnored.