D&D 4E Would 4e work better if it used "round phases"

[ferratus]

Reading the free .pdf on "Old School Hack" as research for my own D&D ripoff homebrew, I started thinking about whether round phases in D&D are a good idea. The idea that everyone does their move actions, attack actions and other actions as a group, rather than on an individual turn.

Since 4e relies so much on teamwork and party roles, there is often quite a bit of debate every time someone moves and attacks whether they have made the optimal, or are attacking the right target. This is especially true if you have children or casual gamers in your group (as I do).

So the question is, would the round go faster if everyone (including the DM's monsters) chose their targets and moved into position before dealing with the attack rolls? What would be the problems with this system?

 

[Matt James]

Much faster. All the monsters would die horrible deaths before they get to go. Similar things could happen if the monsters won initiative. You could probably eliminate combat all-together in a system like this.

Edit: Let me see if I can get you to qualify your statements. Do you want either group to be able to resolve all actions together? Or, all move actions are resolved, then all attack actions--separately?

 

[LostSoul]

I do this. It goes much faster.

edit: The big problem is how to deal with actions such as:

Character A is 60' from character B. B has a Move of 6. A says that he's going to run away at top speed, 80'. B says that he's going to charge A.

How do you resolve that?

An example from a recent game. Three PCs (D, K, and S) open a door revealing a (Monster Vault) black pudding. The black pudding attempts to engulf all of them in its shapeless congeries of protoplasmic bubbles; D slams the door shut, K throws down a Thunderwave to push the black pudding away and moves back, and S runs away.

How I handled it:
* Each PC made a check, using whatever skill was appropriate. D used a Strength-based skill, K used his Thunderwave attack, and S made an Initiative roll.
* The result of the check was the character's new Defence score against any attack, but only if it was higher than their existing check.
* D and K's checks could be applied to all PCs.

The result:
* D, K, and S rolled poorly. The black pudding rolled poorly against D and K, but it hit S.
* S was dragged into the room and engulfed while D slammed the door shut.

I'm not sure I like that - adding modifiers to Defences might be a better solution.

 

[RangerWickett]

Old School Hack (OSH KOSH BEGOSH) works because you get one action per round. It's a completely different system than 4e. Namely, it doesn't use miniatures or grids, so there's no need for people to really have "movement" as a common thing.

(You can move between two different stages of the battle -- from the house to the front yard to the barn to the roof of the barn, for instance -- but within any of those locations, you're assumed to be able to attack anyone else in the same stage.)

Now, if you made a homebrew pseudo-4e system to eliminate tactical movement, you could introduce a new tactical element by taking OSH's action timing mechanic. You'd have to retool or throw out a lot of powers, though.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It's only going to go faster if you have players who don't use slide/push/pull effects.

 

[ferratus]

Edit: Let me see if I can get you to qualify your statements. Do you want either group to be able to resolve all actions together? Or, all move actions are resolved, then all attack actions--separately?

The latter. Everyone in the party and the DM resolves their move actions in order of initiative. Then everyone resolves their attack actions in order of initiative. If they plan on attacking then moving, then they could take their attack during the "movement phase" I suppose.

Lost Soul, could you explain why its faster, RangerWickett, could you explain what powers would be problematic?

Saeviomagy, could you explain why push/pull/slide effects will be a problem? Wouldn't they kick in during the order of initiative as normal, and be ready for the next attack/movement round?

 

[Mad Hamish]

Problematic with the number of things that push, pull, shift as part of an attack.
Or can move more than 1/round... (e.g. a Kobold with Shifty)

consider a ranger and a rogue move to flank a monster who has a shift 1 power as part of an attack. The monster won initiative over both of them.

The monster then shifts 1, attacks the rogue and is out of range of the ranger's attacks.
rinse and repeat....

 

[LostSoul]

It's faster because everyone makes their decisions based on the same information; it doesn't change from turn-to-turn. You've experienced this in 4E, I'm sure: you have a plan for your turn but suddenly everyone's shifted all over the board, bloodied, stunned, etc. Those changes invalidate your plan, so you have to start your decision making process - which is what really eats up all the time in 4E - all over again. If the situation is the same for all players, decision making time is going to go down.

 

[the Jester]

I've played games that work like this and pretty much always find it to be a pain in the ass unless everyone has good ranged attacks. I really don't see any gains to be had here personally.

I mean really, how is the fighter really supposed to function if he moves and the monster isn't there anymore? How are flyby attacks supposed to work? What about a "shift your speed and attack" power? What if I want to attack before I move instead of the other way around? Where does your minor action go?

I dunno, YMMV.

 

[moxcamel]

As others have said, there are powers that work in conjunction with movement, so I think it would be problematic. It also limits what the players and monsters can do, which potentially makes combat more linear and less eventful.

If the goal is to make combat go faster, there's a better fix imho: fix the players. Expect your players to know their characters, and to know their character's powers. Expect them to have a pretty good idea of what they're going to do when they're up, and make sure they realize when their turn is coming around. (I often say something like "Dave, you're up. Melissa you're on deck.") Limit off-topic side-discussions between players so that everyone has situational awareness of what's going on, rather than having to explain it every time somebody's turn comes up because they were deeply engaged with another player on the latest episode of Glee.

You don't have to run combat in a "shotgun" style, but it's been my experience that the number one thing that bogs combat down is the players, not the mechanics. Hand out xp bonuses or some other boon when the players get through a combat relatively efficiently and you'll start to see combat pacing pick up.