Would these maps make for a fun dungeon adventure?

[grodog]

Those maps are levels from the Greyhawk Castle dungeons drawn by Rob Kuntz (co-DM of the campaign with Gary Gygax) c. 1974. They were auctioned off on ebay around the time this thread was started.

For the curious, from the original auction description:

Description (revised)
Original Greyhawk Castle Maps 6 Levels 1973!

LOT 306 Robert J. Kuntz Collection TSR

The Collector's Trove Presents the Robert J. Kuntz Collection! Another fine auction from the Collector's Trove, featuring the collections of past TSR employees, creators of Dungeons and Dragons and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. This is the seventh in a series of such auctions which have included David C. Sutherland III, Stephen. R. Marsh, and Timothy M. Jiardini. Future auctions are slated for Kevin Hendryx. If you want a chance to own part of the TSR legacy bookmark this seller Collector's Trove!

Howdy Folks,

ITEM FOR AUCTION: The Collector's Trove has Robert J. Kuntz's Original Greyhawk Castle Maps - 6 Levels in all from as early as 1973 for auction! (The maps are glowing and floating around my office again. Artifacts like this are so pesky!)

The 6 dungeon levels offered here are from Castle Greyhawk. That's right the original Castle Greyhawk! They are photocopies made way back in the 1970's so that Rob could refer to the levels of the castle that he created.

When Gary Gygax bestowed the mantle of co-DM to Rob in 1973, Rob set about creating more levels to the original Castle Greyhawk as well as a number of adventures for the Greyhawk Outdoors. Rob and Gary constantly shared the manuscript so at some point in the 70's they made copies of the levels that Rob created. The original maps, as well as the keys for Rob's Castle Greyhawk levels still reside within the only copy of Castle Greyhawk in existence, and that is with Gary Gygax, Rob's co-DM for Greyhawk. Since Castle Zagyg is being published by Troll Lord Games, using entirely new maps and not the originals, Rob has decided to sell his reference copies of the levels he created. That's right, a chance to see how the original Castle Greyhawk was laid out.

For further details check the bottom of the listing! I'll be adding more information from Rob himself!

[snip]

6 Castle Greyhawk Levels

As promised here are more details regarding the levels, there are six levels as follows (this from RJK):

Level 3 (split level, East): A special level with the prototype "Garden" of the Plantmaster in it, a Giant's Pool Hall, and the resting place of the first "ring of shooting stars".

Level 8 (East level): The Original "Machine Level," playtested by EGG and adventured on by dozens, including James Ward's Bombadil wizard character. Repair robots, washing tubs, insane machinery, and floors with conveyer belts moving one to these areas.

Level 11 (core level): Whole elevator rooms/complex which actually moves up 1/8 of the map to the levels above, with ending point covering pit (never found by adventurers) with a great magic item in it. Entrance to land of OZ. (that's right, the Emerald City OZ! you heard it here first folks!)

Level 12 (core level): Ice/Snow level (Arctic Level). Includes place where the Frost King held court, the ice worms trap area with many holes, and other boreal clime themed encounters.

Level 13 (core level): Original Lord of Light with "Orb of Brightness" (later renamed gem of brightness by Gary Gygax), Hidden Tomb with staff of wizards, Corridors of Distance, access points to Asgard, Melnibone, Dying Earth, sinking rising rough hewn room to levels below and above.

Level 14 (core level): Access to deeper regions of the castle, bridge over void with Flame guardian, 3 Kings throne room (massive)——Magic-user, Fighter, Cleric——where the Scepter of Might for clerics was located (the Crown, Orb, and Scepter of Might artifacts found in Eldritch Wizardry and later in the AD&D DMG - these were originally created for the various classes - Magic-user, Fighter, Cleric and later changed to alignment based).

Rob also goes on to state: "I will write additional matter from memory for the winner of this, but this should suffice to add some background and flavor to the lot."

Wow! Now that is cool!

 

[RFisher]

If I said the maps were my own [they're not], some folks would say, "No, those maps look stupid, and I'd look for a new DM if you forced me to explore them," merely because of a personal bias against me. I've seen such reactions here before (not just against me).

If I said the maps were created by E. Gary Gygax [they're not], some folks would say, "Hell yes, those maps look fantastic, and I bet the adventure would be great," merely because of a personal bias for EGG. I've seen such reactions here before (not just for EGG).

<Vizzini>

Except that you've just biased my vote by letting me know two people who the author isn't. So, I can clearly not vote Yes.

But you did those in depth analyses of modules, so you have obviously analyzed the impact of your statements enough to know that the best way to avoid bias would be to lie. So, I can clearly not vote No.

</Vizzini>

Those maps are levels from the Greyhawk Castle dungeons drawn by Rob Kuntz

Vizzini suddenly falls over dead.

 

[grodog]

Lol

 

[Celebrim]

The maps show promise in that they avoid the flaws which I see so often from young dungeon masters. These maps are not regular or symmetrical in any way. And, there is alot of diversity as the map changes styles between areas.

But there is also about as much coherence as nethack, and it looks like just as much thought went into the layout. I see only a few interesting features surrounded by alot of ho hum. Things sit around waiting to be killed by the adventures who don't have anything better to do than loot cursed tombs and explore halls packed with lethal monsters from stem to stern.

Looking at the maps, those 5 levels alone could represent 60-80 hours of dungeoneering. I might enjoy it for a while, but I'd get bored before I got through it.

The great thing about looking at these maps and reading Rob's descriptions of the levels is it makes me feel less bad about my own early dungeon making work. If even the giants did this sort of thing, we mere mortals are excused of our folly.

 

[Quasqueton]

I missed this resurgence.

Thanks, grodog, for the info on the dungeon. I had not seen that info (or I just don't remember it).

How old was Rob Kuntz at the time of early D&D (the time of this dungeon)? I think he was notably younger than Gary Gygax, but I've never read an age. [Edit: For that matter, how old was Gygax at the beginning?]

Quasqueton

 

[T. Foster]

Gary's birthday is July 27, 1938; Rob's is September 23, 1955. So in the heyday of the Greyhawk Campaign (1972-74) Gary was in his mid-30s (with teenage children) and Rob was in his late teens.

 

[Melan]

Thaks for the info, grodog! It kinda dispells the "it is only random encounters on a random map" idea a lot of people had...

 

[RFisher]

Level 3 (split level, East): [...] a Giant's Pool Hall

Inspiration for Wormy's giant pool table, p'haps?

 

[Nightfall]

Quasquestion,

I'd need to see them up close and/or in person to make a strong judgement call.

Otherwise meh.

 

[Ry]

I would love to play in those maps, but not run in a room-by-room basis. Draw big areas and make that an encounter area, or have encounters spaced out by "you pass down a few large stone hallways, hewn with images of some forsaken god" instead of "Door 287, Search for traps."