Would this be as inappropriate as I think?

[2WS-Steve]

If you're producing something SPECIFICALLY FOR True20 (in the example you quoted, producing True20 monsters)....instead of something for the wider D20 market, then you should absolutely expect to pay a license fee to say so. What you're doing is NOT simply using OGC. By your own admission, it is specifically for use with True20.

I'm curious. Do you (and others here) believe this to be both a moral and legal requirement?

For instance, one thing I know about writers is that they use up a lot of ink -- and that makes those discount ink or toner cartridges available both online and in office supply stores pretty tempting. Those cartridges are specifically designed for use with printers (and printer brand names) the generic ink company did not make.

Did those companies make a licensing arrangement or are they even required to make a licensing arrangement? (I'm actually asking -- I don't know the legalities.)

If they didn't, are those purveyers of generic cartridges doing something that, while legal, is morally wrong or questionable?

And, finally, are there morally relveant reasons that distinguish the RPG situation from the ink manufacturer situation?

 

[mythusmage]

No tie to True20: Use OGC freely, so long as section 15 clearly indicates OGC sources.

Tie to True20: Get Green Ronin's approval and pay the trademark use fee.

The True20 OGC by itself is free. It's the True20 trademark that costs. Don't want to pay the fee, don't use the trademark.

Mason,

If Dragon Earth ever became a trademark of mine and you asked to use it on one of your products, I would have to turn you down. Because you don't listen. I would much rather deal with people who at least make an effort to produce material to my standards. You are simply not worth my time.

 

[HalWhitewyrm]

I don't think there's really any difference except for the fact that we operate in an industry that is pretty small and tight and where getting on someone's bad side is just not good business, regardless of how correct it may be. I know it's prefectly legal to publish something with a declaration to the effect of "usable with any game that truly uses a single d20" or some other sentence like that to imply the True20 trademark, and in a much larger and anonymous market I would have no problem about doing that, but within this industry I just don't feel like doing something like that and risk getting on GR's bad side and hurt future possible deals that could be of benefit to my company (after all, I'm the one that truly stands to win from associating with the trademark by an increased number of sales). At least that's how I see it.

 

[Pramas]

I'll use True20 as an example, since it's been mentioned so often in this thread. If I produce a supplement specifically for those rules, I better say the words "True20 ruleset required". But even though everything in my theoretical supplement is legal per the OGC, those words aren't. The argument seems to be that using those words is up to the True20 publisher. Which, in effect, blocks the proper use of OGC material. (I say proper use, since there are so many legal ways to use OGC improperly)

Using a publisher's trademarks without permission is not proper use. In fact, the OGL itself goes to some pains to protect trademarks, specifying that you cannot claim compatibility with a trademark without the consent of the trademark holder. See Section 7 of the OGL for details.

So what happens? If a publisher invests the time, money, and effort in creating a new ruleset using OGC, should the publisher be able to stop others from producing OGC material based on their ruleset, simply by not allowing the words "xxx ruleset required"? If so, does this encourage publishers to produce such material and create verbal contortions to say "True20" without really saying it?

What happens is up to the publisher who controls the trademark.

With Mutants & Masterminds, we created a new trademark for third party use (M&M Superlink) and that program is continuing as M&M goes into its second edition. However, running M&M Superlink sucks up staff time because there is an approvals process. For that reason, I did not want to create a similar program for True20. We decided to run the setting search instead, so we'd end up with a small group of quality publishers we could trust to support True20 with good material. We may also license True20 out on a case by case basis, but we'd rather publishers entered the setting search and we have made no such deals as yet.

I understand that people may want to do things with True20 and M&M other than what we've offered. However, nothing in the letter or spirit of the OGL says that we have to give away our trademarks for free. In fact, as I mentioned above, quite the opposite is true.

And, if the answers are yes, does the consumer really benefit from this state of affairs?

This isn't about the consumer, it's about the law. I would absolutely love to make a True20 Sopranos or Sharpe's Rifles RPG but without licenses I can't. If I tried to do either of those games without permission, I would get sued into oblivion by HBO and Bernard Cornwell regardless of how many consumers the games might please. And they'd be right to sue. It is only the OGL that makes people think that somehow these same rules don't apply to RPGs.

So, if you want to use OGC from True20 or M&M, you can do that that as long as you use the OGL properly. You want to make money off our properties by using our trademarks, however, and you better believe we're going to have something to say about it.

Chris Pramas
Green Ronin Publishing

 

[mythusmage]

My Standards

In my post above I said I'd view people who at least tried to reach my standards more favorably than does who didn't. So what are my standards? For your edification they are ...

Write clearly. No run on sentences, no sentence fragments. Get a copy of Strunk and Whites On the Elements of Style. A college level text on English compostion is also a good idea.

Use the active voice and declarative English. Passive voice bores the hell out of people.

Know what you're talking about. When doing research use primary sources. For your information all game books (even GURPS books) are secondary sources at best. Learn your local university library like the back of your hand. Where the mechanics are concerned, know how they work. If you have any doubts, any questions, get in touch with the creator/publisher and ask for clarification. Stay current on errata and changes.

Always have your editing and proofreading done by others, and never have it done by one person. Put together a team so they can crosscheck each other's work.

Learn the difference between good art and bad art. People can tell good art from bad art. If your only choice is between bad art and no art, don't use art. Bad art kills sales. Better to use good graphic design than bad art.

In short, my standards are.

Well written,
Good editing,
Good proofreading,
Good graphic design,
Good art,
Know the subject,
Know the rules.

I will make an exception for the art if you have no source for good art. But the rest are not negotiable. If your work is not up to my standards, and you are unable or unwilling to make the necessary changes, your work will not be approved.

Yes, I am a rat bastard.

 

[BryonD]

May I make certain I'm understanding correctly?
I'm pretty sure what I'm hearing fits what I already thought, but I'd like to be certain.

I can produce a new OGL product tomorrow that is pretty much 100% compatible with True20 or Grim Tales CORE or whatever (assuming I do the OGL right, of course). What I can't do on my own, is make any kind of statement whatsoever in regard to True20 or CORE.

(I also realize that there may be some non SRD derived material which is not identified as Open, so that would be off limits, but that would be a different matter completely outside the whole Open Gaming realm anyway)

Just in case I'm unclear, I completely buy and support the rights of Trademark. I'm not trying to challenge or in the slightest way begrudge its use. I just want to see if I correctly grok the interaction of Tradmark with OGL.

Thanks

 

[Eeralai]

*laugh* Obviously my wife logged in on my laptop sometime today. Just to clarify, the poster is BardStephenFox.

Wow, this topic has gone places. Not necessarily good places, but places.

To revisit the original topic, and to restate my opinion.

Using MageCraft or SpaceCraft as a title wouldn't really bother me. Mainly because those are generic enough names that they hold almost no inherent value to me. Warcraft, Witchcraft, Spycraft are three completely seperate things.

Now if you used any title and tried to borrow the look and feel (the branding) of Spycraft, and did so while trying to sidestep licensing, I would be very unlikely to buy your product. It crosses a line for me and while you might be able to argue the legal merits of it, I wouldn't respect your product. Trust me, there are enough products out there that I don't _need_ to get a book by a company I don't respect.

I think I have been a little hazy on the True20 license. I understand it a bit better now. I can completely understand Green Ronin not wanting any bit of drek associated with True20. Hmm, maybe I need to do a little more research.

Hmm, interesting. I see that the setting search is open-ended with the number of winners. So if there are 50 entries and 20 of them are great, Green Ronin might choose 20 winners? I think I will stop threadjacking Phil's thread and go take a look at the Green Ronin forums. I don't design game settings, but I am a customer that mig

ht be interested in playing them.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Write clearly. No run on sentences, no sentence fragments.

No comma splicing?

 

[mythusmage]

No comma splicing?

Commas are such simple things you really shouldn't have to splice them.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Write clearly. No run on sentences, no sentence fragments. Get a copy of Strunk and Whites On the Elements of Style. A college level text on English compostion is also a good idea.

The Elements of Style (there is no On) is a good suggestion in any event. With only four editions since 1919, Strunk and White did something right with that book.

The Auld Grump, one of my favorite guides to the language...