Would this be as inappropriate as I think?

[DanMcS]

The section 15 thing, at least, has been made pretty clear in the past on various industry forums, and confirmed by both Ryan Dancey and Anthony Valterra when they had a say in it (unfortunately I cannot find links to show their words).
Namely, when you use OGC from a book, you transcribe faithfully that book's section 15, regardless of content or size. The only thing you are allowed to do is remove duplicate entries (and I think no one will complain if typos are fixed as well). Frankly, I find it a little bit annoying when I see products that haven't got this right after 5 years of dealing with the OGL.

I was wondering about this the other day for a thing I'm working on, and it took less than 10 minutes of poking around to find out the answer to this. Once you understand that the term COPYRIGHT NOTICE in section 6 of the OGL refers to all of section 15, it's pretty self-explanatory, too.

 

[Insight]

You're missing my point. Intentionally or not, i can't tell. Maybe i'm not being clear, which is very possible. I am not saying they are forcing, aggresively anyway, anyone to do anything. I know it, you know it, and everybody reading this thread knows it. But it just ain't that simple. By creating a license so that people can use their OGC "officially" it is an obvious attempt to control the use of their material. Anyone not using their TrueD20/Spycraft/Mcdonalds trademark is going to be out in the cold if they don't use the trademark and submit to X companies censorship. I know it, you know it, and everybody reading this thread knows it.

THATS why i think this thread was started, to see if people thought it was cool to side step the trademark and how it might even be done and maintain some sort of fuzzy feeling. Which, at this point, i think is apparently entirely uneeded. At first i thought, heck no that ain't right. Now i'm thinking, hey if they aren't playing by the spirit of the OGL, only the letter of it, why the heck should i? If its about business and grabbing onto everything you can, then don't you dare claim foul when i do the same thing. Ya know?

We're talking about two different things here. Using GR's True20 OGC and using the True20 logo on your product.

The OGC is by definition open content and you can use it freely as long as you include Article 15 and give credit to GR.

Using the True20 logo is a privilege that GR can choose to give to certain publishers at their discretion. I don't believe it's our place to question or dictate why GR chooses to let certain other publishers create product using their trademark.

GR has built a reputation on creating quality products, and yes, they have used the d20 license to do so. You have to agree, however, that not everything with a d20 logo is automatically a quality product. I believe that it is GR's intention that the same not be said of the True20 logo, that everything produced under this logo is quality. While GR doesn't have editorial control over what products these other publishers produce, selecting the publishers means that GR gets to pick people they can trust to put out quality work.

 

[Pramas]

We're talking about two different things here. Using GR's True20 OGC and using the True20 logo on your product.

The OGC is by definition open content and you can use it freely as long as you include Article 15 and give credit to GR.

Using the True20 logo is a privilege that GR can choose to give to certain publishers at their discretion. I don't believe it's our place to question or dictate why GR chooses to let certain other publishers create product using their trademark.

GR has built a reputation on creating quality products, and yes, they have used the d20 license to do so. You have to agree, however, that not everything with a d20 logo is automatically a quality product. I believe that it is GR's intention that the same not be said of the True20 logo, that everything produced under this logo is quality. While GR doesn't have editorial control over what products these other publishers produce, selecting the publishers means that GR gets to pick people they can trust to put out quality work.

Entirely correct. The idea that the OGC is somehow crippled is nonsense. Anyone can use the OGC however they want by using the OGL the same way that we did when we created True20. They can't, however, appropriate our trademark. Frankly, the suggestion that we are somehow obligated to give away our trademark to anyone who wants it is ridiculous. If that's the standard, where are all the people demanding that the same be done with Castles and Crusaders or World of Warcraft or any of the dozens of other games that use the OGL?

The open content is open. You can do whatever you want with that as long as you follow the rules of the OGL. If you want the True20 logo--the one we created and made valuable--you have to talk to us. That is eminently reasonable.

 

[PJ-Mason]

We're talking about two different things here. Using GR's True20 OGC and using the True20 logo on your product.

No, i don't think so. I think that by creating the TrueD20 Logo they are, in their own way, crippling their OGC. Or making it more lucrative to play with their ball the way they want you to. Even if the ball is supposed to belong to the playground. Not anyone one kid in the park.

I'm not saying they are Evil Incarnate or that they feed babies to dingos. Just that this business of creating licenses with OGC (not specific fiction, or settings, or what have you. but game mechanics) so that you can control others creativity or "quality"....Its going to end up creating armed camps of licensed game mechanics in the community, where you either act the way someone dictates or get tagged with a Not Official, or Doesn't Count tag. Or at the very least it'll become an Elitist's club. Call it doomsaying, since i know some are already typing it!

I'm not saying string anybody up, i'm not saying burn anybody at the stake. I'm just saying it sucks.

 

[PJ-Mason]

If that's the standard, where are all the people demanding that the same be done with Castles and Crusaders or World of Warcraft or any of the dozens of other games that use the OGL?

I'll admitt i don't have those books. Can't buy everything!
Did they trademark their game mechanics, too?

 

[GMSkarka]

No, i don't think so. I think that by creating the TrueD20 Logo they are, in their own way, crippling their OGC. Or making it more lucrative to play with their ball the way they want you to. Even if the ball is supposed to belong to the playground. Not anyone one kid in the park.

Then, bluntly, you do not even remotely understand the concept of Branding, or the difference between it and Open Content.

I would suggest that you learn the difference, as your posts are seriously starting to creep into the territory of "obnoxious", rather than merely "mistaken."

 

[PJ-Mason]

Then, bluntly, you do not even remotely understand the concept of Branding, or the difference between it and Open Content.

I would suggest that you learn the difference, as your posts are seriously starting to creep into the territory of "obnoxious", rather than merely "mistaken."

Or i understand the difference you think it is, don't see it as the difference you want everyone to see it as, and that it apparently displeases you. Bluntly speaking, of course.

 

[GMSkarka]

Or i understand the difference you think it is, don't see it as the difference you want everyone to see it as, and that it apparently displeases you. Bluntly speaking, of course.

Wow.


Despite what you think, this isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. Branding is entirely a separate concept. It's really obvious that you don't understand what that concept entails, or that it has ZERO IMPACT on the use of Open Content.

"The difference you want everyone to see it as"....are you seriously suggesting that publishers who understand the concept are somehow trying to pull something over on people? That's what it sounds like you're saying with this....

 

[jmucchiello]

By creating a license so that people can use their OGC "officially" it is an obvious attempt to control the use of their material. Anyone not using their TrueD20/Spycraft/Mcdonalds trademark is going to be out in the cold if they don't use the trademark and submit to X companies censorship. I know it, you know it, and everybody reading this thread knows it.

Um, I have no problem with it because they aren't restricting the OGC at all. They are restricting their trademark. You have no right to use the trademark to begin with. So you aren't losing anything. In order to gain the trademark, you have to jump through a hoop. Don't like the hoop, don't use the trademark. This is not restricting the OGC in any way. It is merely a choice you must make.

 

[GMSkarka]

Um, I have no problem with it because they aren't restricting the OGC at all. They are restricting their trademark. You have no right to use the trademark to begin with. So you aren't losing anything. In order to gain the trademark, you have to jump through a hoop. Don't like the hoop, don't use the trademark. This is not restricting the OGC in any way. It is merely a choice you must make.

Exactly.

I could take all of the OGC from True20 and use it to create a new product.

However, if I want to be able to BRAND (there's that word again) my product as "for use with True20", I need jump through the hoops that Green Ronin puts up.

It's entirely separate from using the OGC.