Would this be as inappropriate as I think?

[PJ-Mason]

As far as crippleware, I'm definitely against it, but I don't consider True20 crippleware in the strict sense of the word.

It might just be close enough to make a difference for many. Most probably won't care one way or the other, though.

GR simply wants to maintain control over what carries their trademarked logo only, not limit the spread of the game material. We are all free to use the OGC contained in True20, we just can't outright say it is compatible with True20 because that is GR's trademark, which in turn means that we would need to find a way to let customers know they can use these products for their True20-powered games, which then leads us into the whole indirect reference tactics we are discussing on this thread.

Yes, i know. Thats my point. Why else produce a license like this if its not to control use of your gaming material? How does it "protect" their trademarks anymore than the OGL license already does? by using the OGL you are already agreeing not to mess with other people's trademarks and IP, etc. Its like dangling a carrot or apple in front of the horse in order to slip the noose around its neck.

"Sure, you can use our OGC, but its not as good as using our trademark (dangle, dangle...yank!) Btw, we get control over what you do now! yeehaw!"

 

[PJ-Mason]

I am sorry if this is thread-jacking, btw. I only wanted to point out how the whole license thing might affect whether people use non-wotc OGC or not. Most probably don't want to mess with trying to skirt around trademarks or things like that, so the the 3rd-party community-ogc model just doesn't work as well as it might.

 

[HalWhitewyrm]

Not quite. From what I've understood based on the True20 FAQ GR posted, they are not necessarily going to control my material, but rather make sure I can produce quality products that will be associated with their material. They already do that with the M&M Superlink program, in which they actually have to review each and every single product that wants to display that logo, and (those who have participated in M&M Superlink please correct me if I am wrong) they also have veto power to grant the logo or not. I assume it's the same with the Powered by Spycraft program.

With True20, they aren't looking to be that involved since it sucks manpower/hours like crazy. Rather, they want to look at various companies, choose X (and no one knows what X is) and grant them royalty-free use of the logo because they make good, quality stuff that they can trust sight-unseen. Other who don't make this initial cut will have the option of contacting GR to negotiate a standard licensing permit. Not sure if this option will include a review-and-veto clause.

 

[Cergorach]

That's the approach that I use but there are a number of publishers (of all sizes) that use the other method. And there's a growing number of new publishers that don't even use either of the previously mentioned methods -- hell, some of them don't even list the SRD in their section 15.

Iron Heroes by Monte Cook is one of those books. I wonder how he would like it if i pulled everything from IH, put it in product X, put in a reference to IH in section 15 (and only IH). Then make product Y, copy ecerything from product X and aonly reference product X in the section 15...

Maybe i'm to sneaky for my own good (as the start of this thread might indicate ;-) but "You reap what you sow." so to speak...

ps. I'm currently working with the titles SpaceCraft and MageCraft (working titles . The first is obviously a sci-fi setting with of course space ships (using the space chase rule from SG-1) , the second is my attempt at using the SC engine with classic classes such as Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, and Cleric (magic system from SFA, maybe a bit more freestyle, maybe not). Still working with SC1.0 rules, i'll upgrade as soon as time permits... *laughs manically*

 

[Insight]

Not quite. From what I've understood based on the True20 FAQ GR posted, they are not necessarily going to control my material, but rather make sure I can produce quality products that will be associated with their material. They already do that with the M&M Superlink program, in which they actually have to review each and every single product that wants to display that logo, and (those who have participated in M&M Superlink please correct me if I am wrong) they also have veto power to grant the logo or not. I assume it's the same with the Powered by Spycraft program.

With True20, they aren't looking to be that involved since it sucks manpower/hours like crazy. Rather, they want to look at various companies, choose X (and no one knows what X is) and grant them royalty-free use of the logo because they make good, quality stuff that they can trust sight-unseen. Other who don't make this initial cut will have the option of contacting GR to negotiate a standard licensing permit. Not sure if this option will include a review-and-veto clause.

Right. Green Ronin is not interested in controlling what publishers do with the True20 license. They want to be able to select who gets to use the True20 logo (royalty free I might add), and those publishers can do what they want. Implicit in GR's selection of said publishers is that GR hopes those publishers will do the right thing with the True20 license and not make GR regret their decision. But GR will likely not have control over what publishers do.

Those publishers who don't make the initial cut to use the True20 logo will have to either go the OGL route or negotiate an agreement with GR to use the logo.

 

[PJ-Mason]

Not quite. From what I've understood based on the True20 FAQ GR posted, they are not necessarily going to control my material, but rather make sure I can produce quality products that will be associated with their material. They already do that with the M&M Superlink program, in which they actually have to review each and every single product that wants to display that logo, and (those who have participated in M&M Superlink please correct me if I am wrong) they also have veto power to grant the logo or not. I assume it's the same with the Powered by Spycraft program.

With True20, they aren't looking to be that involved since it sucks manpower/hours like crazy. Rather, they want to look at various companies, choose X (and no one knows what X is) and grant them royalty-free use of the logo because they make good, quality stuff that they can trust sight-unseen. Other who don't make this initial cut will have the option of contacting GR to negotiate a standard licensing permit. Not sure if this option will include a review-and-veto clause.

I hadn't realize they are charging for the use of their license. Well.

It still looks like they are trying to control their material to me. Creating a license for people to use their material "officially", or the select few for free, doesn't protect their trademarks anymore than they already are. If someone is going to compromise their trademarks, they are going to it whether Green Ronin gives them permission to or not! So all it really does is give them veto, or sanction, power over a lot of people's stuff. Thats control, not protection.

 

[philreed]

Iron Heroes by Monte Cook is one of those books. I wonder how he would like it if i pulled everything from IH, put it in product X, put in a reference to IH in section 15 (and only IH). Then make product Y, copy ecerything from product X and aonly reference product X in the section 15...

See, I think that would be a dishonest, disgusting tactic to take. I feel actions like that are hostile and unnecessary.

 

[philreed]

It still looks like they are trying to control their material to me.

I suspect that the M&M Superlink program was a learning ground for Green Ronin. My guess is that they're actively working to limit the possibility of poor quality material with the True20 logo hitting the market. Many, many people make the mistake of thinking that the M&M Superlink approval process is for quality when it's not. It's for legal reasons, making sure the products properly identify Green Ronin's PI and trademarks.

 

[PJ-Mason]

I suspect that the M&M Superlink program was a learning ground for Green Ronin. My guess is that they're actively working to limit the possibility of poor quality material with the True20 logo hitting the market. Many, many people make the mistake of thinking that the M&M Superlink approval process is for quality when it's not. It's for legal reasons, making sure the products properly identify Green Ronin's PI and trademarks.

Oh, i absolutely agree that is was an experiment. They said as much when they first introduced the Superlink program. I don't think i heard of anyone getting denied a superlink project. Has it happened? That would lend some merit to the claim it was IP protection.
But i then wonder why, given their outright goal of quality control for True D20, they have changed their mind with True D20. Is Superlink right behind it, including a royalty fee?

 

[mythusmage]

Oh, i absolutely agree that is was an experiment. They said as much when they first introduced the Superlink program. I don't think i heard of anyone getting denied a superlink project. Has it happened? That would lend some merit to the claim it was IP protection.
But i then wonder why, given their outright goal of quality control for True D20, they have changed their mind with True D20. Is Superlink right behind it, including a royalty fee?

Better to be an ass and protect your reputation than accomodating and lose it. You want your material associated with True20, then get it right. Do the best you can, and if it's not good enough, learn to do it better.

It is not Chris' job to make you feel good, it's Chris' job to make sure people see his product as being quality work. You produce crap under the True20 logo it will hurt his reputation, and his sales.

It's not a businessman's job to see that you fulfill your dreams, it's a businessman's job to see you do not ruin his business.

And you need to consider your reputation. You produce crap you won't last long in the business. Chris is giving you a goal, to produce the best you know how, and to improve your work. Your product is of high quality not only will he be more apt to let you use the logo, your stuff will sell.

In short, by setting the standards high he increases the value of the logo, both for himself and for those authorized to use it on their products. But if he lets anyone use it the logo becomes just about worthless.

Mason, Chris is not out to stop you from using the True20 logo, he's out to make sure you earn the right to use the True20 logo.