would this be evil?

[Dagger75]

I am with you Tsyr

I just started reading this thread and I can't believe some stuff.


I CAN'T believe Tsyr has to argue that kidnapping is evil.

I CAN'T beilieve some of you actually think killing the child is not that bad because they didn't mean to. I am glad you weren't on juries when drunk drivers are on trial for killing a family coming home from Disney.

Reading some these responses is just sick.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: I am with you Tsyr

I just started reading this thread and I can't believe some stuff.


I CAN'T believe Tsyr has to argue that kidnapping is evil.

Kidnap vs retain

I CAN'T beilieve some of you actually think killing the child is not that bad because they didn't mean to. I am glad you weren't on juries when drunk drivers are on trial for killing a family coming home from Disney.

I don't think anybody said that. The discussion was if it made them evil.

Reading some these responses is just sick.

I didn't know anybody felt that strong about D&D.

 

[Villano]

Re: Re: I am with you Tsyr

Kidnap vs retain

Bart Simpson: "Hey, can I see your club?"

Officer Carl: "It's not a club, it's a baton."

Bart Simpson: "What do you use it for?"

Officer Carl: "Clubbing people."

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: I am with you Tsyr

Bart Simpson: "Hey, can I see your club?"

Officer Carl: "It's not a club, it's a baton."

Bart Simpson: "What do you use it for?"

Officer Carl: "Clubbing people."

Bart Simpson: "Hey, can I see your baton?"

Officer Carl: "It's not a baton, it's a club."

Bart Simpson: "What do you use it for?"

Officer Carl: "I use it in the parade."

 

[Villano]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I am with you Tsyr

Originally posted by Bonedagger Bart Simpson: "Hey, can I see your baton?"

Officer Carl: "It's not a baton, it's a club."

Bart Simpson: "What do you use it for?"

Officer Carl: "I use it in the parade."[/QUOTE

Obviously you don't watch The Simpsons (or write comedy).

I honestly don't get where you got "retain" from. In the original post by Balgus which started this, it said, "So you kidnap the politician's daughter and hold her ransome."

Kidnap.

They kidnap an innocent in order to force the politician to free their criminal friend. And then they smack her around and kill her.

Evil, plain and simple. I don't understand why everyone has such a difficult time with this.

EDIT: I tried to edit this to quote properly, but it keep ending up like you see it. Screw it. I'm leaving it that way.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I am with you Tsyr

*snip* [/B]

The question was what "value" we would give the actions Balgus described according to a D&D concept.

Like we can say scent, smell and stench. We can also give actions value according to weather we find them god or bad.

"Kidnap" is a loaded word.

 

[Mort]

To keep the discussion on the evil vs "just stupid" nature (assuming it hasn't played out) I started a different thread on whether the DM made a bad call in having the critical hit rolled when hitting to subdue kill the victim.



New thread

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I am with you Tsyr

The question was what "value" we would give the actions Balgus described according to a D&D concept.

Like we can say scent, smell and stench. We can also give actions value according to weather we find them god or bad.

"Kidnap" is a loaded word.

You've got to be kidding me.

Kidnap, abduct, abscond with, steal, swipe, etc.

Any way you slice it, the party took an innocent person hostage simply because she was related to someone their associate had already wronged.

They tried to use a morally reprehensible act to avoid their associate having to take responsibility for a crime.

Purely along D&D's Good/Evil axis, they willingly hurt and oppressed others, putting them right in line with, from the PHB, "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others".

It's an EVIL ACT.

In fact, if you could assign it a specific alignment, the act would be NEUTRAL EVIL. From the PHB: "The criminal who robs and murders to get what she wants is neutral evil."

How can using a COMPLETELY innocent victim to force a wronged person to release the one who wronged them be anything but an evil act?


Patrick Y.

 

[Magius del Cotto]

Re: I am with you Tsyr

I just started reading this thread and I can't believe some stuff.


I CAN'T believe Tsyr has to argue that kidnapping is evil.

I CAN'T beilieve some of you actually think killing the child is not that bad because they didn't mean to. I am glad you weren't on juries when drunk drivers are on trial for killing a family coming home from Disney.

Reading some these responses is just sick.

OK, point 1, I agree with. Point 2, I have to say, I don't agree with, at least, insofar as what I said. Them killing the girl is no worse than the adventures attacking an Orc settlement unprovoked and slaughtering everything there (at least, all orcish). This sort of thing happens all of the time in D&D, and nobody gets into a moral quandry about it. Am I saying it shouldn't be punished? No. Am I saying it should have an effect on their alignment? No, at least, no more than slaughtering an Orc village would.

 

[bloodymage]

Posted by Bonedagger:

Personally I never use concepts like good and evil but thats another story.

Maybe because you're so obviously ambivalent and unclear on the concept?

My take:

The theft-unlawful, possibly stupid.

The kidnapping-evil, unlawful, definitely stupid and soon as the beloved, well-developed ranger suggested it, I would've started tracking his alignment. In the execution of this heinous, evil act, he would have reverted to a N fighter if he had been LG and CN if he had been NG.

The killing-evil, unlawful, again stupid and as far as I'm concerned the DM made a good call. You roll a natch in my game, it means you creamed something. You roll a fumble and you flubbed it big time. No damage there unless it's against yourself or an ally.

In my game, the ranger would already be lost heading toward evil and the rest of the party would be teetering on an alignment change. If they ran, any step out of bounds would send them over. Their only redemption in an alignment sense is to turn themselves in and face the music and pray their deities will accept their souls when they're hung! Ironically, the only one to get out relatively clean would be the thief!