Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[Voadam]

Fair enough. Using the RAW (which include alignments for all beings), I can get away with:

"Killing is an evil act, with the following enumerated exceptions:"

(1) "killing anything with an evil alignment is not evil"

(2) "killing anything with a good alignment is not evil only if it is in direct defense of a character's (PC or NPC) life, lawfully-deserved freedom (i.e., no obstruction of justice), or limb"

(3) "killing anything with a neutral alignment is not evil if that thing is at the time of battle acting in concert with those of evil alignment"

(4) "killing anything with a neutral alignment is not evil if it is in direct defense of a character's life, lawfully-deserved freedom, or limb."

Will that do?

--The Sigil

So you have to be photosynthetic to not do evil?

Meat is murder?

Even vegetarians eat killed plants.

Slapping mosquitos is evil?

I guess we are all sinners

Come on Sigil, I think you can do better than this.

Are you defining "anything" as "sentient creatures"?

 

[Voadam]

but I know that if their clients stopped using their services they would find another way to survive.

Or die.

 

[Navar]

Or die.

True, but that is "natural selection." You adept or die, as long as you have an easy source of food/money/etc. you don't have to change, if that source goes away you adept or die, but I think that humans are nothing if not adaptable, but then again I am optimistic.

 

[shilsen]

I hope this won't lock the thread due to a religion reference...

*tackles The Sigil and knocks him to the floor, throws a big non-religious rug over him and sits on it as the mods walk by*

"Hello, moderators - fancy seeing you in this little thread I started. Yes, yes, it'sa lovely day. Trouble? No, no - must have been ... er, um, that "3.5e is only played by poopyheads" thread down the road. Why is this rug moving? Termites. Yeah, big ones. Awakened ones, which is why it's swearing. No worries, I'll deal with it."

*continues to sit on rug till moderators walk over to the next thread, before getting off and letting The Sigil out*

"Darn it, man! That was CLOSE!"

Fair enough. Using the RAW (which include alignments for all beings), I can get away with:

"Killing is an evil act, with the following enumerated exceptions:"

(1) "killing anything with an evil alignment is not evil"

(2) "killing anything with a good alignment is not evil only if it is in direct defense of a character's (PC or NPC) life, lawfully-deserved freedom (i.e., no obstruction of justice), or limb"

(3) "killing anything with a neutral alignment is not evil if that thing is at the time of battle acting in concert with those of evil alignment"

(4) "killing anything with a neutral alignment is not evil if it is in direct defense of a character's life, lawfully-deserved freedom, or limb."

Will that do?

--The Sigil

That's pretty comprehensive, but too simplistic, IMO. For example, I'd say that walking in and killing an evil guy who happens to be just sitting in the local tavern and having a beer would count as evil, whereas your point (1) sees that as okay. It comes down to interpretation again.

 

[Mallus]

In fact the problem here is that all of the example you gave ARE EVIL.

The fact is the examples I sited went to address your statement that women always had a meaningful choice regarding prostitution. No matter where or when they are...

They were not intended to address to quesion "is prostitution always wrong?".

So you post proves my point.

Which point? That I'm a knuckle-dragging chauvanist for having the temerity to point out that brutal socioeconomic conditions exist that force women into horrible situations? I'd like to think my post demonstrates thats false. Seeing as you didn't weigh in on that point, I'm assuming you agree that it does.

...snip...any paladin worth his salt would free the women and overthrow the despot who caused the problems in the first place.

You're making the assumption that that's even remotely possible. Why?

I don't feel that starving or whoreing are the only 2 choices that women have in any part of the world

And this opinion is based on something other than a deeply-felt desire for it to be true?

Let me give an example. To get my 3.5 books I can either go to work, get stressed, come home late, miss my family, and get paid then use that money to buy my books, or I can get a board, drive a nail in it, walk into my LGS and take whatever book I want. I choose to work.

Frankly, the example is meaningless. You do understand that large numbers of people exist in places riven by such poverty, civil disorder, collapse of even the most basic elements of civil society that they don't have the option to work an honest job. You get this, right?

In those countries the women may be socially conditioned to beleive that they only have 1 choice,

'Social conditioning?' Do you honestly think that's a deciding factor in areas where vast numbers of people still starve to death and die of ridiculously-preventable diseases?

Choice is a lovely thing. And we're terribly fortunate to live in a society that affords us so damn much of it. But do you honestly think that your being compassionate and pro-woman by assuming that everyone, everywhere has the same?

 

[shilsen]

True, but that is "natural selection." You adept or die, as long as you have an easy source of food/money/etc. you don't have to change, if that source goes away you adept or die, but I think that humans are nothing if not adaptable, but then again I am optimistic.

Don't forget that part of adapatability and free choice involves making choices that other people might disagree with. There are many women (although certainly a minority among those in the profession) who choose prostitution as a profession despite having other options. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yes, prostitution as a profession can cause all sorts of problems socially and for the individual, esp. when it comes to prostitution through coercion. But is prostitution inherently evil? I don't think so. The only time prostitution is inherently regarded as evil and immoral (a term that often gets used synonymously with evil in this case) is if you think there is something sacrosanct about the sexual act and prostitution debases it in some manner. I don't think there is anything sacrosanct about it and so I can't see anything inherently wrong with prostitution. You, and I'm sure many here, will disagree.

 

[The Sigil]

So you have to be photosynthetic to not do evil?

Meat is murder?

Even vegetarians eat killed plants.

Slapping mosquitos is evil?

I guess we are all sinners

Come on Sigil, I think you can do better than this.

Are you defining "anything" as "sentient creatures"?

Should have clarified that, but I was in a hurry. For the sake of my four points above, replace "anything" with "creatures with an Intelligence score greater than 2" (i.e., above animal intelligence).

Add also a fifth point:

5.) If the "killer" is a neutral creature with an intelligence score of 2 or less, killing is not an evil act (as I will submit that to commit an evil act, the actor must be capable of making moral judgments; an actor falling under exemption 5 cannot commit evil as it lacks the ability to make moral judgments, thus its actions, while "destructive" are not evil - and yes, that includes people whose intelligence is so impaired as to be below even the lowest "normal range" - frex, those suffering from severe brain damage).

And a sixth point:

6.) Killing a neutral creature with an intelligence score less than or equal to 2 (i.e., creatures not covered as "anything" by points 1-4 above) is an evil act if not done for the purpose of self-defense or for using some portion of the creature to physically/materially benefit oneself or others in a direct manner OR if the method chosen for such a killing is chosen primarily on the basis of its ability to inflict significant amounts of suffering on the creature before allowing it to die - i.e., killing for food or pelts is fine, killing for pleasure is not.

--The Sigil

 

[Navar]

@ Mallus still the point of my post was that if the clients stopped then the women WOULD make other choices.

And the point that you proved was that prostution was evil (if the women have no other choice) which was what your "What if the woman had no other means of income (a depressingly common occurance even now)?" statment implied. So back to the origional point of the thread. A paladin who pays for sex is not a paladin at all.
If they are prostutite/slaves then that is one thing and they actually have no choice, but if they choose that lifestyle then they are making choice. It goes back to "The simplest solution to a problem is not always the best." Yes it is VERY easy for them to get paid for sex, but other choices exist. (excepting when they are slaves which is another argument alltogether.)

 

[Voadam]

Should have clarified that, but I was in a hurry. For the sake of my four points above, replace "anything" with "creatures with an Intelligence score greater than 2" (i.e., above animal intelligence).

--The Sigil

Just giving you a hard time here.

 

[Navar]

Don't forget that part of adapatability and free choice involves making choices that other people might disagree with. There are many women (although certainly a minority among those in the profession) who choose prostitution as a profession despite having other options. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yes, prostitution as a profession can cause all sorts of problems socially and for the individual, esp. when it comes to prostitution through coercion. But is prostitution inherently evil? I don't think so. The only time prostitution is inherently regarded as evil and immoral (a term that often gets used synonymously with evil in this case) is if you think there is something sacrosanct about the sexual act and prostitution debases it in some manner. I don't think there is anything sacrosanct about it and so I can't see anything inherently wrong with prostitution. You, and I'm sure many here, will disagree.

I actually had a hard time with this as well, but I think the problem with prostitution is that it may not have bad effects on the 2 people who are involved in the act. The problem is that it degrades society. Having whores around does not have any benefit, and provides an outlet for disease, and it allows for Pimps to abuse women. It also causes society to further objectify women. (These 2 things are a problem for me and have nothing to do with weather sex is sacrosanct or not)