Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[iwatt]

It's quite easy, actually - fricasee a few power-gamers, top up with the paladin's code, sprinkle with a little alignment for flavor, and there you go !

I always thought it involved eyes of a munchkin, a drop of blood of a rules-lawyer, and a hair of a Larper....

 

[Horizon]

I just have to say: Great thread. There's still an interesting discussion going on, though I think the most important points have been brought up by now.

As for me? I'd allow this without a thought, BUT I would expect the player to keep it mature. The way Shilsen describes Sir Cedric I would just love to have him in my campaign. I wouldn't be so sure though if all of the people that I play with would be able to run a difficult character like Cedric well.

I think this a very good example, for those of us who've grown bored with paladins over the years, to give us some new ideas for paladins to play. I'll even have to think again whether I'm still gonna play my planned archer for the next game coming up...

As for the stories: Shilsen, PLEASE give us some more! One moment I almost have to wipe away a tear and the next I fall off my chair laughing.

 

[Rackhir]

Sure you can run him Shil, he can't possibly be worse than Avi's Frenzied Berzerker. Though I thought you said that you were going to run a Mage. Avi was interested in seeing your paladin build that did more damage than his FB in any case.

Well if you change your mind, you can even bump him up to match the other characters.

 

[Baron Opal]

Shilsen, I don't know what foul rituals and sacrifices you made to bestow eternal life to this thread........... please share

Damn, this thread is still alive?

Well, we're not allowed to argue about politics or religion, so it seems that arguing over the paladin's code, having paladins in the party, and other such threads gives us the release we need.



Here's a question for Cedric / Shilsen: "If you find what you do to be so worthless, or pointless, why do you continue?" The answer to that question would decide whether or not the character would be a valid paladin. What he has listed as his "off-the-clock" amusements don't really amount to much to me.

Probably answered in the bowels of the thread, but I've missed it.

Baron Opal

 

[shilsen]

As for the stories: Shilsen, PLEASE give us some more! One moment I almost have to wipe away a tear and the next I fall off my chair laughing.

Thanks. I've got a couple more ideas, and should start working on them as soon as I can shake off this damn flu that I'm down with (fever and cough, to be precise).

Sure you can run him Shil, he can't possibly be worse than Avi's Frenzied Berzerker. Though I thought you said that you were going to run a Mage. Avi was interested in seeing your paladin build that did more damage than his FB in any case.

Well if you change your mind, you can even bump him up to match the other characters.

I wasn't planning to run him. Cedric would be way too much fun to run just once and the interesting thing where the character is concerned, for me, is the personality, not the effectiveness. I'll stick with the archmage. As for Avi's FB, all you have to do is find a way to make him rage and attack my PC

Here's a question for Cedric / Shilsen: "If you find what you do to be so worthless, or pointless, why do you continue?" The answer to that question would decide whether or not the character would be a valid paladin. What he has listed as his "off-the-clock" amusements don't really amount to much to me.

Probably answered in the bowels of the thread, but I've missed it.

Good question. I may answer this in more detail in a future piece of fiction, but here's the short answer: Cedric is very aware of temporality and realizes that his actions will have no effect in the long run. He can never eradicate evil completely, and in all likelihood, the reverses it suffers through his actions will be reversed again. But since his actions are based on whether the action is intrinsically worthwhile, and not upon their eventual success, he continues to act as he should. To quote from the opening story, he says, "Yes, I fight the good fight. And I fight it not because I can win or because I hope to do some lasting good, but simply because it should be fought." It's not about success or failure for him. So while he's a cynic in one sense, he's an idealist in another, and is so simultaneously.

To use an illustrative example from myself, I never lie. Ever. I just decided some dozen years ago that it doesn't make sense to do so (I'll omit the long philosophical rambling reasons), so I don't. There are many times when someone asks me a question and I know that telling the truth may not help me in anyw ay. There are also times when my telling the truth will clearly harm me, but I go ahead and do so anyway. Why? Because I think telling the truth is a good thing (and because I'm too lazy to come up with a lie ). Success and failure, as with Cedric, is immaterial in my choice. And yes, I am at least somewhat certifiably nuts

I'm not sure if that helps or not, but I really should go to bed now before I keel over.

 

[The Druid Merlin]

“…can take our lives, but they’ll never take … our FREEDOOOOOMMM!!!”

Sir Orion raised his mailed fist in defiance of the enemy beyond his walls as his cry reverberated off the battlements. After a dramatic pause, he lowered his arm and looked down at the gathered soldiers, hoping for (and half expecting) a resounding cheer. He did get a cheer and a round of applause to boot, but it only came from Sir Gahon and the other young hotheads standing to the side, puffed up with pride with their dreams of chivalry and glory. The soldiers simply stood there stolidly, with expressions ranging from boredom to sheer, barely controlled, fear of the hordes without. Old Horstein, in the front row, leaned forward and carefully spat a stream of tobacco onto the ground before straightening up to lean on his pike again. Feet shuffled behind him, though naturally nobody had the temerity to leave.

Orion’s face did not show it, but his heart fell. We are doomed, he thought, and for all my brave words, they all know it. We’re outnumbered ten to one, and this keep isn’t strong enough to keep them out for more than a day. After that, it’ll be a slaughter. And from the looks on their faces, they’ll be surrendering as soon as the wall goes down – for all the good it’ll do them.

His face showed none of the thoughts as he turned away and headed down the steps to the small podium he’d been standing on. At the bottom, he looked at the young knights, drawing another unwonted cheer from them. But it was the laconic, “Good talk,” from the man standing some distance away from them that momentarily cheered him. Cedric nodded as the commander looked at him and then asked, “Mind if I say a few words?”

“Not at all,” said Orion. Come on, old friend – let’s see some of that magic. Please.

“Thanks.”

Cedric hitched his belt a little higher and trotted up the steps, before making a jaunty little jump onto the podium that drew a couple of chuckles from the crowd. His battered armor made him stand in sharp contrast to the commander in his shining mail, and the comparison was heightened as he plopped down on the platform’s edge, dangling his legs, and then raised a bottle to the crowd, before taking a hearty swig. The chuckles spread into a little ripple, and a couple of whispers started up.

“Ahhh!” said Cedric, after swallowing, “Now that really hit the spot!” He shook the bottle in a mock-threatening manner at the crowd and said, “If any of you bastards let bloody Kurgash’s horde get our booze, I’m really going to be pissed off!” Orion winced inwardly, but noticed that the chuckles were beginning to take on a regular tone. Even old Horstein’s lips were twisting in amusement.

Cedric waved an arm in Orion’s general direction and said, “If our commander doesn’t mind me saying so, I’ve got a little beef to pick with him. He gave you some erroneous information just now. They actually CAN take your freedom. In fact, considering what I know about Kurgash and his need for slaves for his mines up north, I’d say he’s positively looking forward to it.”

Orion’s eyes went a little wide, and he heard angry whispers from Gahon and his men. What the hell are you doing, Cedric? he thought, even as he noticed that the original chuckles had ceased completely.

“Of course,” continued Cedric, without skipping a beat, “Depending on how … er, cute you are, you might find that slavery doesn’t involve dying in the mines. Let’s just say that Kurgash’s ogres like man-flesh. And not just to eat, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.” Despite the claim, Cedric made a crude gesture to illustrate his point. There were a couple more chuckles from the crowd, but they sounded forced. Orion noticed that some of the younger men, including among the knights, had turned a pale shade of green.

Cedric took a quick swig, giving the idea time to percolate. Now think about that before you consider surrendering, he thought, before going on, “Of course – you could easily make sure that you don’t end up as a slave or as Big Harga’s boy-toy. Just get yourself killed tomorrow. Shouldn’t be too difficult to do, actually. Just don’t defend yourself well enough and some hobgoblin will be bloody happy to cut you in half. Sure, it’ll be painful and all for a bit, but then you’ll be dead and won’t have to worry about slavery or freedom or anything like that. Peachy!”

Orion barely managed to restrain himself from rushing onto the platform. What in heaven’s name are you doing Cedric? he thought frantically. If they weren’t panicking before, they definitely will be now! Glaring back and forth at the assembled soldiers, he saw them exchange fearful glances, and ripples of uneasy mutterings began to spread.

The sound of Cedric’s bottle shattering on the stones drew Orion’s attention, and he saw that Cedric was back on his feet. “Unless you’re like me,” said Cedric, looking down at the scared men. “You see – I am a servant of the High Lord. And I’ve got a lot more important things to do than be killed by Kurgash’s trash. Or be a slave. Or, for that matter, get an ogre boyfriend.”

The last comment still drew a couple of chuckles, but Cedric spoke right over them. “I’m guessing that you’re like me. You walk like me, you talk like me, you drink like me – so I’m guessing you think like me. And I think there’s only one thing for us to do. We’re going to kill those bastards.” He continued without a pause, “You see, it’s quite simple. I don’t want to die. And if I’m alive and they’ve got me, I’m better off dead. So I’m just going to have to kill enough of them to make them think I’m not worth the effort. And the same goes for all of you. We’ve got to beat them so bad that they say, ‘Unholy crap – these sons-of-bitches aren’t worth dying for.’ You guys ain’t got to die for the king. You’ve just got to make those guys die for Kurgash.”

To his disbelief, Orion noticed a few nods in the crowd, followed by a couple of rumbles of agreement. One or two weapons were shaken. I don’t believe it! It’s working.

Cedric, meanwhile, had leaned over and beckoned the crowd closer. With puzzled expressions, they shuffled forward until they stood all around the podium. He leaned over with a conspiratorial grin and said, “Plus we’ve got the power. They’re just coming here to get our asses – metaphorically, well mostly, speaking. But we own our asses. And the one who owns the ass has a whole lot more power than the one who wants it.” He waved at the gathered people and said, “Ask any married man here.” And winked.

There was a split second of silence and then guffaws rang through the crowd, followed by a couple of cheers. Orion couldn’t help laughing himself, even as he noticed that Horstein was laughing and nodding his head so hard that tobacco juice was rolling out his mouth.

“So,” said Cedric, “Here’s what we do tomorrow. When Kurgash’s people get here, we give them the finger. And then when they get to our walls, we give them the finger again, only this time we give it to them with the rest of the fist and an arm’s-length of steel with it. And we’re doing that all day, and the next day, and the next … until they go home crying and tell stories about how we’re all such lousy dates.” More laughs and cheers rang out.

“Now I’m going to get off this podium and we’re all going to go get ready to kick some ass tomorrow. Because they may try to take our lives and they may try to take our freedom, but the one thing they’ll never, ever take are our asses! I own my ass, dammit! Who owns your ass?”

Orion almost choked at the rousing cry of “I OWN MY ASS!” that rang out.

Cedric somersaulted to his feet, drawing more cheers. “And are you giving an ogre your ass?”

“HELL, NO!”

“So what are we going to make Kurgash kiss tomorrow?”

“WE’RE GOING TO MAKE HIM KISS OUR ASS!!”

Cedric laughed joyfully and leaped down from the podium, landing on his feet amidst the men, armor ringing out upon him. As he made his way through them, soldiers clapped him on the back and cheered. He reached the edge of the crowd and clapped Horstein on the rear, causing the old soldier to scowl theatrically and wave his pike, drawing another loud laugh from the men around.

Stepping out of the crowd, he walked towards Orion as the cheering soldiers began to disband. “I think they’re ready,” he said with a grin, looking at the commander’s expression. “And don’t worry – the historians will never remember that ‘Kiss my ass, Kurgash’ will be our battle-cry tomorrow. Well, probably not.”

Orion laughed as Cedric clapped him on the shoulder and said, “Now we better go do some planning. I really do want to make that bastard seriously regret ever ing with us.” He threw another look at Orion and added, “Metaphorically, of course.” As the grinning paladin turned away, Orion headed after him, feeling hope spring in his breast for the first time in days.

Who does this guy think he is? Patton?

 

[Gynsala]

Drinking - There is nothing in the rules saying a paladin could not drink or even get drunk. If you want to go by the RAW, the only place I can find this mentioned in official WoTC material is Defenders of the faith Side bar: "Paladins should avoid drinking too much since it impairs their readiness to combat evil" First things first, it says "should" it does not describe an absolute. Second it says "since it impairs...." - if the person knows how to drink and handle their liquor they have no concerns.
Some might say "what if the paladin starts a brawl." Well that is a different issue. I can say, from experience, that drinking does not mean I am going to start a fight. Trust me I am willing to fight (I used to box in college). When I am drunk I am still willing to fight - but I know how to control myself even when blasted drunk.

Cursing - Yea everyone curses and that is a personal choice. Maybe, and i emphasize maybe, if the paladin curses his god there would be some reprocussions, but in all honesty I would treat is as "The god looks down, shakes his head, sighs and thinks 'i really gotta raise my paladins to be a bit less abrassive, well as long as the job gets done and they are not doing anything really bad'"

Prostitution - You guys realize that up until about one hundred years ago (really less) prostitution was perfectly OK and legal in the US? It is only not legal because of religious institution influence - and that is not all religions. Prostitution is a state law, not federal law. Yes there are the places in this world that have slaves - but Shil did not write about such a place. He wrote about an acceptable brothal (just like those you can find in Nevada, though there are other happy brothels). Also, you really shouldn't compare our modern day beliefs to beliefs in (around) the dark ages. Brothels were perfectly acceptable. They were established institutions that provided a service. Not all prostitutes are rude or evil, some are very nice women who are happy to make thousands of dollars every week, if not every night!!! Shil's story did not mention children, did not mention forced servitude.

So would I allow this yes, would I try playing this yes - though I might not do as good a job as Shil. I currently have a paladin in his game, but he is a goody good paladin - but that is because my last character was a slick salesman

If I had kids in my game I would not play this, luckily I do not, and luckily the people in my game can handle sexual content.

Anyhow, my three bits

-A

I agree with everything here, just wanted to chime in on one thing.

The whole CONSTANT VIGILANCE thing is to ward against allowing any non-holy elements to enter into their persona. It's harder to be a Paladin of Cedric's type, because you walk so much closer to that line, that you could cross it at any moment without realizing it.

DMing a campaign with Cedric in it, I'd let the character know that certain activities or inactions will definitely lead to losing their paladinhood, and give them an idea of what those would be. Have a list of those kinda things on the side, and should he/she do any such thing, they immediately fall. Personally, I really don't think it would last all that long, most Paladin's I've played with have major problems as soon as they deviate from the "stick in the mud" type character. Then the character can stick around, just as a fallen paladin who has to figure out what they want to do now (or seek atonement). But if it's played JUST right... the game would benefit for having such a player involved.

 

[shilsen]

Who does this guy think he is? Patton?

By George S., I think he's got it

 

[Sigg]

As for standards, I do, in fact, hold paladins to a VERY HIGH standard, because I want them to UNDERSTAND rather than parrot. Any dink can follow a Celestial Rulebook for no better reason than "It says so." It takes a truly good person, and a fairly impressive one, to do good because he actually knows what is right and wrong. There is a difference between knowing the trappings of right and wrong and seeing past those trappings to what your true impact will be. There's also a tremendous difference between doing right and giving the appearance of doing right. Which brings me to vice and "moral attitudes," I have a different opinion than most on what constitutes a vice and what constitutes a virtue, and most people who are "holding themselves above vice" are among the most despicable people on the planet, in my experience. And they are generally responsible for more suffering and death than any dozen flawed human beings who nevertheless actually try to do right. If all these cats are exemplars of "moral attitudes" then the heavens must be a really unpleasant place.

Dignity and honor is in the eye of the beholder, but in my estimation the kind of dignity and honor everyone wants out of paladins is hollow. It is actually a form of pride and self-aggrandizement. Paladins shouldn't ride out around with a trumpet announcing to the world what wonderful people they are. It's people like that which cause us to NEED paladins.

Oh, and while I'm dealing with falsehoods... I believe the second highest calling for a paladin (or anyone for that matter) is the service of Truth. Politeness and its associated trivialities are nonsense and lies. There's a difference between respect for the legitimate and feigning respect to that which has not earned it for reason of "civility." The first is a virtue, the second is the lowest form of dishonesty, the subversion of truth for expediency.

The highest calling is to Love, but that's harder. Very few people in D&D worlds or the real world have managed to pull that one off consistently, and if we were making it a requisite for playing a paladin, we wouldn't have any. Still, Cedric does a better job of it than most.

Although I agree with you on several details (such as many people who seem moral or good aren't really), it's in the overall idea you're presenting where I disagree. First, you seem to be confusing the player of a paladin with the character. Because many players might play paladins as "naive chuckleheads" doesn't mean they don't intend for their characters to good and true....it's just that the PLAYER might not have the same depth of insight as maybe their character would. Also, I strongly disagree that "Politeness and its associated trivialities are nonsense and lies". Showing courtesy to another person is showing respect (which all being deserve) for their feelings and humanity. That you might not agree with that person about the inherent value of their standards of morality or civility is not sufficient reason to dismiss their ideas and feelings. Feigned respect is never good, but neither is not having respect at all. Not respecting others is a sign that you lack understanding, compassion, and love for others. If you truely love other people, despite their flaws and ignorances, then courtesy and respect come naturally and without effort. To relate to the fictional character presented, his lack of respect reveals a lack of faith, love, compassion, and understanding in and for his patron and his fellow sentient beings. If Cedric had only shown a bit of gruffness or rough edges socially speaking I would have no trouble with him. It's that combined with his self-pitying diatribe about how rough a life paladins have and his condescending attitude towards the knight sent to find him that would be a deal-killer for this character in my game. This attitude he displayed in this fictional piece would have me (playing the part of his patron) removing his gifts and sending him dreams. I might even send the senior priest in the area a dream/vision directing the church to recall this wayward son so he can be counselled and healed of his obvious emotional pain.

 

[Orius]

“So,” said Cedric, “Here’s what we do tomorrow. When Kurgash’s people get here, we give them the finger. And then when they get to our walls, we give them the finger again, only this time we give it to them with the rest of the fist and an arm’s-length of steel with it. And we’re doing that all day, and the next day, and the next … until they go home crying and tell stories about how we’re all such lousy dates.”

This speech rocked.