Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[shilsen]

Philosophy

“So, Cedric,” said Orion, “What do you think of our chances?” Before his companion could reply, he shook an admonishing finger and added, “And no lying to make me feel better!”

Cedric grinned. “Come on – you know I never lie. Sure, I may not share some information, but I won’t lie.” His grin broadened. “Plus it’s too much hard work to come up with a lie, and any time you do, you’ve got to remember who you lied to, what the truth is, worry about whether they’ll find out about it, and so on. Too bloody complicated for me.”

Seeing the look in his friend’s eyes, he waved a hand in apology and said, “Yes, yes – I’ll quit rambling. So, what do I think of our chances?” His grin didn’t falter, but his tone softened slightly – “I think we’re dead.”

“Truly?” You are not kidding, are you, Cedric? thought Orion.

“Truly. This fort was never as strong as the sodding bureaucrats made it out to be and we have maybe two-thirds the men we need to hold it. Kurgash’s hordes are well-equipped and drastically outnumber us. We stand no chance of being reinforced, unless Gareth not only decides to ignore the king and break his leaguer, but pulls off a forced march that I’d have a bloody hard time making alone, leave alone with an army. Kurgash may not have anything in the way of siege engines – other than ogres hurling rocks, that is – but we’ve got no real way to keep his forces from the wall either. Let the wall be breached and we’ll last maybe a day or two. I expect we’ll sell our lives very dearly, but at the end, I expect we will sell them.”

Orion’s expression had grown steadily gloomier as Cedric calmly described the situation. As he considered that there was really no basis for argument, a thought struck him. “On a related note, then – why are you here?”

“Huh?”

Orion grinned mirthlessly at seeing Cedric taken off-guard for a moment. “Just what I said. Why are you here? You’re pretty sure we’re going to die and you’re probably right. I’ve got to be here, because I am the commander. This is my duty. But you decided to ride poor old Bo… Beobarius all the way here. Why? You couldn’t be missing me that much!”

Cedric threw back his head and laughed raucously, drawing curious looks from the pair of guards down at the far end of the otherwise empty hall. “You know, Orion, sometimes you can be a bit thick. Have you not met me?” The mirth disappeared from his face, but his eyes still twinkled, as if he was privy to an intensely private joke, as he added, “It’s quite simple, actually. You needed help. And since I couldn’t bring an army, I came alone. That’s it.”

“Yes, I get that, but what I don’t get is the rest of it. You came to help, right?”

“Yes.”

“But you expect that your help will very likely not change the fact that I will be killed here.”

“Also, yes.”

“And, in fact, you fully expect to die by my side.”

“God, you’re good. Go on – you’re giving me goosebumps.”

Orion ignored the comment and continued, “So you’re here to ‘help’ even though you expect that this help will be of no avail and will lead to your death. That makes absolutely no sense, even for you, Cedric. If our state is so completely hopeless, why choose to be part of it?”

Cedric held Orion’s gaze steadily for a moment, for speaking. His voice was dry but, for once, lacking the undertone of irony it usually held. “Because I should. My nation and its people are under attack, and a friend of mine stands alone … well, relatively alone … before the onslaught. So I think I should help him. Whether my help will save him or not, whether success of failure are in the offing, whether I will garner fame and glory beside him or die in the mud on a hobgoblin’s pike, are immaterial. What matters is that the action is right. And at this moment, there is no place more right for me to be – my friend – than by your side.”

His voice was almost embarrassing in its sincerity and for a moment Orion could not meet his gaze, feeling a lump in his throat and a sting behind his eyes. Fighting off the reaction for a moment, he continued, speaking a little thickly, “Believe me, there are few people I would rather have by my side than you, but I still do not completely understand. Doesn’t the possibility of success or failure matter to you?”

“Not really. I am aware of them, and I will act to maximize the chances of success where possible, but at a fundamental level, they do not matter. What matters for me is to do what I should do, as well as I can, every moment of every day. Once I do that, I have a satisfaction in my actions that neither success nor failure can touch. And believe me, I know. I have plumbed the depths of failure before and will again – though this time it might be terminal. In the short term, can I help save you and your men’s lives? I certainly hope so, but I just as strongly expect that I will not. And in the long term, it is quite likely that my actions here cannot prevent the eventual fall of our nation. Even if we fight off a hundred invasions, some day, long after you and I are gone, a force may come forth that cannot be stopped, and it will wipe our land from the world. In the material sense, at that moment, everything you and I have done to protect it will be meaningless and futile. But that does not – and never will – impact our actions in this moment. Right here and now, in this moment, all that matters is that we should stand against the foe, even if it is a foe we cannot hope to defeat. And so, I do.”

“You know, Cedric, I don’t know if that makes you an incredible hero or a complete and utter fool.”

“Both. And neither. I’m just a man. But I am exactly the man I choose to be, doing exactly what I choose to do, in exactly the place that I choose to be. And I have been, for many years now. That is a joy worth dying for.”

“If you say so,” said Orion, looking unconvinced.

Cedric grinned. “Or maybe I’m just talking out my ass. What the do I know?” He winked and then jumped to his feet, “Time to stop talking philosophy and go check on the preparations, don’t you think? I have a couple of ideas to make things harder for Kurgash.”

As Orion rose to his feet too, Cedric looked inwards within himself, testing the truth of his words and himself, as he constantly did. Just as he had mentioned to Orion, he found the very real belief that he would be dead in a couple of days. There was a muted sense of sorrow at the impending loss of a life he truly loved and enjoyed, mingled with a greater sorrow at the place of eternal loss, sorrow and pain in the world. There was a complete and utter lack of fear, and a mild amusement at the lack thereof. And overlying it all was the never-ending joy he felt every day of his life at the fascinating beauty of the world, with all its facets and its mutability, and the utter adamantine certainty of his place within it. Yes, he thought, as he followed Orion towards the door, It will be a pity to leave this world. But I could not choose otherwise and remain what I am.

 

[iwatt]

There was a complete and utter lack of fear, and a mild amusement at the lack thereof.

As I was reading this , which was very nice by the way, I was struck specially by this. As a paladin, he doesn't feel fear.

SRD:

Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

This is huge. I'm no psychologist or biologist, but from what I understand fear is a very useful survival trait. What would the real world effect of this inability to feel fear really have on an individual? First thing that come to mind is that there, aren't any Lev 3 paladins who are adrenalin junkies. Any other ideas on this subject. How would this affect Cedric, since you're trying to round him out as a more "human" paladin (or that is mat kleast my impression from your posts).

By the way, I guess the above depends on how you read the aura of courage ability: (1) unable to feel fear. (2) feels fear, but is unnafected by it.


witrhnrespect to your post: It allays (sp?) my doubts that Cedric wasn't a beacon of hope. He ast least now represents in my mind the kind of guy who will do the right thing regardless of circumstances. It is right for him to help his friend. It's still hopeles, and he can feel sad about that, but he's vindicated in the fact that he's doing the right thing.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

This is huge. I'm no psychologist or biologist, but from what I understand fear is a very useful survival trait. What would the real world effect of this inability to feel fear really have on an individual?

As a biologist (and someone who spends every day with psychologists), I can safely say that I haven't a clue.

Fear is central to our lives as they are lived. Fear is a HUGE motivator for so many of our behaviors. Removing it completely might well create something entirely inhuman. But here are some guesses...

1) He'd be incredibly attractive to women (and that's without his Charisma bonus)
2) He'd live a lot longer, provided he managed to die of natural causes (for similar reasons, he would have better spatial memory than people of similar age and would process toxins more efficiently. If anyone wants the bio on this, I can go into detail, but it primarily has to do with the fact that I'm assuming many of his fight or flight responses would be drastically decreased. He also would probably have a lower overall metabolism unless he kept very active, though again... paladin.)
3) He would generally be the first one to act in any surprising or dangerous situation. People tend to freeze up momentarily when their amygdala wants them to get out of Dodge but their personal inclinations are to stand and fight.
4) If he was in the habit of being a good person (we can assume 3rd level paladins are) he would be insanely heroic. He has nothing inhibiting him from many kinds of rash action.
5) If someone who was not a third level paladin acquired this ability, they would probably start sliding towards what D&D calls "Chaotic Evil" right quick. It is generally accepted (and is even central to some religions and some theories of altruistic behavior among psychologists) that fear of the consequences of their actions is the only thing that keeps people from behaving in entirely selfish ways all the time. I personally don't believe that is the case for all people, but there is definitely a category of people for which this is true.

 

[The Sigil]

But isn't this objectification fine in transactions between non friends? When you want an apple from the store you don't necessarily care about the individual vendor's personhood, it is ok to just want to buy an apple.

Not a good example - the apple is the object of your desire (to satisfy your hunger) in this case, not the vendor. The vendor is merely that which is required to facilitate you getting you the object you want. Thus, you have not objectified a person.

In the case of prostitution, the body of the other person - which is an integral part of that person - is the object of your desire (to satisfy your sex drive). In this case you have objectified a person (and the pimp - or the time the person spent negotiating with you - would be analagous to the vendor - that which is required to facilitate you receiving the object of your desire). In the case of a self-employed prostitute, the vendor IS the apple.

(Hope that makes sense.)

--The Sigil

 

[iwatt]

1) He'd be incredibly attractive to women (and that's without his Charisma bonus)

why?

2) He'd live a lot longer, provided he managed to die of natural causes (for similar reasons, he would have better spatial memory than people of similar age and would process toxins more efficiently. If anyone wants the bio on this, I can go into detail, but it primarily has to do with the fact that I'm assuming many of his fight or flight responses would be drastically decreased. He also would probably have a lower overall metabolism unless he kept very active, though again... paladin.)

Ah, places less stress on his health, since he enver get's these wild surges...cool.

3) He would generally be the first one to act in any surprising or dangerous situation. People tend to freeze up momentarily when their amygdala wants them to get out of Dodge but their personal inclinations are to stand and fight.

I get this. But he also wouldn't have the boost from a sudden adrenalin rush... so just say they cancel each other (he isn't shocked, but he doesn't get teh faster reaction time?).

4) If he was in the habit of being a good person (we can assume 3rd level paladins are) he would be insanely heroic. He has nothing inhibiting him from many kinds of rash action.

This was my first though as well. So you would actually have the effect that pladins always charge!! I've been playing my dwarf pally perfectly then

5) If someone who was not a third level paladin acquired this ability, they would probably start sliding towards what D&D calls "Chaotic Evil" right quick. It is generally accepted (and is even central to some religions and some theories of altruistic behavior among psychologists) that fear of the consequences of their actions is the only thing that keeps people from behaving in entirely selfish ways all the time. I personally don't believe that is the case for all people, but there is definitely a category of people for which this is true.

And gives another reason why the paladin code is so important. The pally needs the rules not to go into a psychotic (sp?) break....

 

[Voadam]

Not a good example - the apple is the object of your desire (to satisfy your hunger) in this case, not the vendor. The vendor is merely that which is required to facilitate you getting you the object you want. Thus, you have not objectified a person.

In the case of prostitution, the body of the other person - which is an integral part of that person - is the object of your desire (to satisfy your sex drive). In this case you have objectified a person (and the pimp - or the time the person spent negotiating with you - would be analagous to the vendor - that which is required to facilitate you receiving the object of your desire). In the case of a self-employed prostitute, the vendor IS the apple.

(Hope that makes sense.)

--The Sigil

Well then how about switching the example to getting a professional (nonsexual) massage for a closer analogy to prostitution. Getting a physical service from another using their body.

Or hiring somebody to pose as a model.

Neither of these professional uses of others bodies without particular care for them as individual people seem to be evil or even negative objectification to me. It seems to be morally neutral objectification.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

1) He'd be incredibly attractive to women (and that's without his Charisma bonus)

why?

Well, this one isn't very biological, unlike the rest. It came from two things. First, I honestly believe women are attracted to confidence (it's a defensible position and it would explain why my attractiveness has varied the way it has throughout my life). Fearlessness would breed confidence, and if it didn't, it would fake it real well. Second, women ARE attracted to social status (a fact that I can back up with about a dozen psychology studies if anyone disputes it). That part is solid, but here's the total opinion part: Fear is the primary determinant of male social status. The less fearful of the other males you are (whether said fear is of getting beat up or of being socially disgraced) the higher you end up in the hierarchy. This is my theory of male human social hierarchies, but it's a work in progress, so I readily accept that it might be total crap. If there's any truth to it. The paladin will instantly own any room he walks into.

Of course, the whole "no fear of social disgrace" thing doesn't line up with the literature paladins are based on. Those knights were deathly afraid of social discomfiture.

Ah, places less stress on his health, since he enver get's these wild surges...cool.

Basically, yeah. Stress hormones (and testosterone, which is also released in higher ammounts under stress) are actually really, REALLY bad for some parts of your body. Especially the kidneys, arteries, immune system, and hippocampus (a brain region that primarily has to do with spatial memory). Higher testosterone levels and stronger stress responses are considered the primary reasons why male life expectancy is so much shorter than female life expectancy. Partially because it makes us stupid, but also because some of our systems simply suffer more wear and tear.

High testosterone levels are actually the human equivalent of a peacock's tail. Females dig them (at least part of every month), but they require the male to have an incredible immune system. If you can put out that much testosterone, but you're still pretty symmetrical and not dying of disease, you must have rockin' genes.

I get this. But he also wouldn't have the boost from a sudden adrenalin rush... so just say they cancel each other (he isn't shocked, but he doesn't get teh faster reaction time?).

Possibly. I didn't really think deeply on this. It's actually really hard to model, not least because we don't know everything going on in the brain that relates to all this. Immediate reaction time is really neurally mediated, though, not hormonally, so I haven't a clue.

However, that makes me realize that if the fight or flight response really is turned down, that would be really, really bad for him in a protracted fight. He wouldn't have all the peripheral blood vessel constriction that slows bleeding, he wouldn't stop wasting energy on digestion, he wouldn't mobilze sugar as effectively. Without a fear response, I think he might actually react BETTER in the first few seconds, but his body wouldn't be preparing itself properly for what it had to do.

Given that, I have to assume that immunity to fear is a mystic/psychological effect that leave all the normal biological responses functioning. Otherwise, very few paladins would make it to level 4.

 

[Furby076]

1)why?
2)Ah, places less stress on his health, since he enver get's these wild surges...cool.
3)I get this. But he also wouldn't have the boost from a sudden adrenalin rush... so just say they cancel each other (he isn't shocked, but he doesn't get teh faster reaction time?).
4)This was my first though as well. So you would actually have the effect that pladins always charge!! I've been playing my dwarf pally perfectly then
5)And gives another reason why the paladin code is so important. The pally needs the rules not to go into a psychotic (sp?) break....

To respond in number

1) I agree being w/o fear does not necessarily make you attractive to women. In fact someone would say that is a "stereotypical male-bravado bullcrap" and the woman would tell him he is foolish.
2)Yes less stress from being fearful. Sometimes fear is a good indicater that you are overmatched (especially to a trained fighter)
3)Adrenaline does not just come from fear, it comes also from excitement. Though DnD does not account for adrenaline (you could say Rage is an adrenaline boost)
4)He would be insanely heroic (i guess to be a paladin you have to be). Remember, in 2nd Ed paladins had to have a minimum wisdom score....while we are in 3.x, they do not, most paladins will have a 10 or so wisdom. Given that, they will be knowledgable enough to realize that running in head first can be unwise.
5)Thats the thing. A paladin is already the picture perfection of goodness and they get this ability to help them out. Realizing that every action has a possible reaction that is negative is not fear, it is smart. I may not fear anything, but I realize that robbing the bank may get me killed, lose my paladinhood, etc.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

1) I agree being w/o fear does not necessarily make you attractive to women. In fact someone would say that is a "stereotypical male-bravado bullcrap" and the woman would tell him he is foolish.

And yet, males who are guilty of "stereotypical male-bravado bullcrap" are the exact males females are more attracted to during the most fertile part of their cycle. Women are essentially bipolar when it comes to what they find attractive. Disclaimer: this is statistically speaking. There are large numbers of women who are more consistent. But on average, 3 weeks out of 4, women prefer men who have lower testosterone and men who are more genetically similar to themselves, but 1 week out of 4, they prefer high testosterone men and men that are genetically different from themselves. This is true across multiple methods of determining attractiveness.

EDIT: Also, I know this appears inconsistent with my statement above that women are attracted to social status. It's like saying that men are attracted to both great smiles AND a 2:3 waist-to-hip ratio. They'll take one or the other, but prefer both.

This is increasingly off-topic, but there's an entire psychobiological literature on female mate choice and "cads" vs "dads." Interesting reading, though it often makes me a little ill. In some countries, 15% or more of births have different fathers than expected (12% in the U.S. iirc). And women are the gender that is substantially more faithful. Males who cheat are actually in the majority by most reasonable counts. Of course, we're relying at least partly on self-report for that, so it's always subject to a LARGE margin of error.

3)Adrenaline does not just come from fear, it comes also from excitement. Though DnD does not account for adrenaline (you could say Rage is an adrenaline boost)

As I said in my last post, 3 is more about neural response than hormonal. 2 is the primarily hormonal point, which is, admittedly, not 100% sound.

4)He would be insanely heroic (i guess to be a paladin you have to be). Remember, in 2nd Ed paladins had to have a minimum wisdom score....while we are in 3.x, they do not, most paladins will have a 10 or so wisdom. Given that, they will be knowledgable enough to realize that running in head first can be unwise.

Sure, but if it's still the best thing to do for others, they will do it without hesitation that a fearful (read: normal) person will have by their very nature.

Besides, rationalization of what was a good idea or not usually comes AFTER the fact. I'm increasingly in the camp that believes people usually act first and decide after. Much of our vaunted intellect and decision-making is really just making up post-hoc reasons for actions we've already done.

Dammit. It was less than a week ago that I swore not to bring my work into my gaming (and the boards). I am a weak, weak man.

 

[iwatt]

1) I agree being w/o fear does not necessarily make you attractive to women. In fact someone would say that is a "stereotypical male-bravado bullcrap" and the woman would tell him he is foolish.

Actually, I asked "why" because I wanted a more in depth reason to Cannis' response. I have read about the studies about "cads" v/s "dads" and also the female bipolar argument. It hasn't been proved either way yet (I think), but it does have some pretty sound studies behind it (once again, this is stuff I'v read/heard thanks to my sis who "is" a bio-chemist and is at least more familiar with this stuff tha I'll ever be).

Well, this one isn't very biological, unlike the rest. It came from two things. First, I honestly believe women are attracted to confidence (it's a defensible position and it would explain why my attractiveness has varied the way it has throughout my life). Fearlessness would breed confidence, and if it didn't, it would fake it real well.

Ah, I see were you're coming from: Confident----> it's a signal that you'll be a good supplier of protein/defender of the lair. I do agree whith this.

Second, women ARE attracted to social status (a fact that I can back up with about a dozen psychology studies if anyone disputes it).

I'll take your word for it. This is one of those areas were some people don't like the conclusions drawn from scientific studies.

That part is solid, but here's the total opinion part: Fear is the primary determinant of male social status. The less fearful of the other males you are (whether said fear is of getting beat up or of being socially disgraced) the higher you end up in the hierarchy. This is my theory of male human social hierarchies, but it's a work in progress, so I readily accept that it might be total crap. If there's any truth to it. The paladin will instantly own any room he walks into.

I can see somewhat what you imply here, but I don't think it's got to do so much with the: "fear is of getting beat up or of being socially disgraced" as much as with the whole confidence thing you stated first. It's always easier to follow a confident idiot than a self-doubting genius.

By the way, I haven't followed the current debate on what constitutes attractiveness to closely, but from what I understand it is not solely based on biological/built in factors, but also based on societal imprint (sp?). You also "learn" what is attractive.