Would you allow this?

[FireLance]

This has never come up in any of my games, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

Let's say you have a fighter with Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave. He's toe to toe with some powerful monster when his spellcaster friend casts Summon Swarm (Brd 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2), filling the area with plenty of small, weak creatures.

The fighter declares that he will use Whirlwind Attack on all the creatures within 5 feet. Every time he hits and downs one of them, he will then use Great Cleave to attack the monster.

Would you allow this? Or if you think that attacking the creatures summoned by Summon Swarm is absurd, would you allow it if the spellcaster used Summon Monster III to summon 1d4+1 1st-level monsters?

 

[Crothian]

Luckily my players would think this is to absurd to even try

 

[gfunk]

This is simply a re-statment of the old blind kobold joke that people used to throw around. You can use the game mechanic to get additional attacks in a number of ridiculous ways. But to get back to the point, no, I would not allow it.

And I would smack the player who tried . . .

 

[Crothian]

Either that or when the swarm appeared, the Big Bad Nasty does a WWA and uses all the lceaves to hit the PCs.

 

[LokiDR]

I think your thought experiment is flawed. What does whirlwind really mean? I think it means to swing throught every opponent. Although this use is technically valid, I would never allow it, just like not allowing cleave on an AoO. Your tatic was refered by another poster as "whirlwind/great cleave/bag-o-snails". In the general case, I would agree.

On the other hand, if you are running a game for the express intent of finding and exploiting every hole you can (a fun exercise on occasion) you aren't comming from the stand I am. It would break a campaign, IMO, but that doesn't stop you from having fun with it once or twice. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[0-hr]

It's a good example of a case where common sense should override the rules-as-written. For each iterative attack, I would allow at most a single cleave on a given target.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think there is a literal interpretation that makes this combination illegal anyway.

"The swarm cannot be fought effectively with weapons"

If it cannot be fought, it cannot be Whirlwinded.

 

[Bastoche]

I think there is a literal interpretation that makes this combination illegal anyway.

"The swarm cannot be fought effectively with weapons"

If it cannot be fought, it cannot be Whirlwinded.

Good call.

 

[shurai]

For the record, you can hit a nearly arbitrary number of opponents in six seconds with any weapon, assuming they're within reach. The trick is, doing it skillfully. You don't necessarily have to slash through them to do it, because real combat is blindingly fast most of the time.

As an example, I study hung gar, a style of kung fu. I've only been doing it for a little while, but I can already throw about 30 punches in six seconds. Granted,

Also, I study iaido, a Japanese sword art based on drawing the sword quickly. One of our forms has four cuts for four opponents, one on each diagonal. The killing part of the form, including drawing the sword and a defensive action, takes about one combat round. Keep in mind that I'm playing a cute game compared to the way that swordsmen in Japan and Europe used to train.

So what you're doing when you make a Whirlwind attack is just attacking fiercely in many directions at once, for most warriors. Though truthfully, some weapons I could definitely see cutting right through one opponent and into another (Greatsword anyone?).

-S

 

[Bastoche]

For the record, you can hit a nearly arbitrary number of opponents in six seconds with any weapon, assuming they're within reach. The trick is, doing it skillfully. You don't necessarily have to slash through them to do it, because real combat is blindingly fast most of the time.

As an example, I study hung gar, a style of kung fu. I've only been doing it for a little while, but I can already throw about 30 punches in six seconds. Granted,

Also, I study iaido, a Japanese sword art based on drawing the sword quickly. One of our forms has four cuts for four opponents, one on each diagonal. The killing part of the form, including drawing the sword and a defensive action, takes about one combat round. Keep in mind that I'm playing a cute game compared to the way that swordsmen in Japan and Europe used to train.

So what you're doing when you make a Whirlwind attack is just attacking fiercely in many directions at once, for most warriors. Though truthfully, some weapons I could definitely see cutting right through one opponent and into another (Greatsword anyone?).

-S

Comparing real fighting skills and table fighting mechanics is always a mistake IMO.

In a true fight, one cut is more than enough to end a fight. It never lasts 6 seconds. In a fantasy medieval game, a hero can take quite a beating before getting really in real danger. Not really a good comparison IMO.

LARPG fights on the other hand gives a little more accurate source of comparison (but still). And these fights are really slow.

There's a difference between a fight where the first (and last) blow makes the survivor and a fight where the last (among many) blows makes the victor.