Would You Buy This Book?

[Nellisir]

I'll go against the flow and say I like the idea, AND the null-space cannon, and while I wouldn't use it in my -current- d20 campaign (which is norse-based), I would use it in a sorta high fantasy magic game. Actually, I'd love coming up with a setting to support it...some world of crumbled empires and ancient ruins, where the evil technologists that destroyed civilization with their awesome weapons of destruction are reviled and the benign mages that shattered their power are adored....

One of the selling points is the -lack- of progress that possible elsewhere, since technology is only usable by a few.

Still hate steampunk, though. And point-based magic systems.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Kelleris]

Gothic_Demon: Glad to hear it. If all else fails, I think the device list (which, to be honest, will take up much of the PDF) should be useful.

Devyn: True enough, there are many quirkier settings this would be good for, but it also works well as an alien spellcasting-type ability for more standard campaigns. I already convert ethergaunts from wizard-casters to technologist-casters, for instance.

Whisper72: Well, with the way the class works now, I think a week or less of free time per level would be sufficient to cover all the Craft time the class requires. Less than that would weaken it (it would be hard to spend the bonus Craft points) but not cripple the technologist unless his devices would also get smashed a lot. Then the class would be weak. But that's pretty hostile territory, like a rogue in a campaign versus undead and constructs with nobody to talk to an lots of bright lights.

Li Shenron: As I mentioned earlier, this doesn't assume technology being any more common than spellcasting, and probably much less common. There are other books that deal with technology as an industry or something that anyone can use - this is (meant to be) different.

DragonLancer: Thanks!

diaglo: Hmm, I've collected a lot of resources in this area. If you told me specifically what you wanted I might be able to point out something more up your alley.

JimAde: I haven't finished writing it, yet; I don't expect promises. Just wondering what the masses thought. Thanks for the endorsement, though.

jsewell (and Li Shenron): It would be simplicity itself to make a D20 Modern PrC like the Mage - a Shadow Technologist or something similar, using arcane sciences based on principles from another world, and in league with nastiness itself. Restrict their access to the full device list somewhat to reflect D20 Modern conventions (no teleportation, things like that), and it'd be done in a few pages. That's a pretty good idea.

DemonWolfZero - Hmm, yeah, I have a rough system of strengths and weaknesses relative to the cleric and wizard. Including a few pages of guidelines for making new devices is just a good idea.

kyloss - This would be a bit more work than the D20 Modern PrC, but still doable in a few pages. I'm thinking of a Savant base class modeled on the technologist, with fewer devices and a slightly slower progression but useable at will.

 

[Kelleris]

I'll go against the flow and say I like the idea, AND the null-space cannon, and while I wouldn't use it in my -current- d20 campaign (which is norse-based), I would use it in a sorta high fantasy magic game. Actually, I'd love coming up with a setting to support it...some world of crumbled empires and ancient ruins, where the evil technologists that destroyed civilization with their awesome weapons of destruction are reviled and the benign mages that shattered their power are adored....

One of the selling points is the -lack- of progress that possible elsewhere, since technology is only usable by a few.

Still hate steampunk, though. And point-based magic systems.

In my personal campaign setting, technology was the result of an invasion by alternate-Prime invaders, dubbed the Imperium Mechanus by the locals. They attacked through a weak magical gate they jury-rigged into working, but were quickly shattered when all of their machines shut down. Remnants of that military and curious locals with intelligence but little magical aptitude have adapted the ruins of the Rusting Fields into the technology used by this class.

As for steampunk, well, that term varies in its application. I suppose some of the devices have steampunk elements, but only at low levels. Out of the 77 extant gadget-level devices, I believe there are only two or three that incorporate a steam engine. My own tastes for that level tend toward clockwork and alchemy.

The point-based thing is pretty integral, though. Would you like to see a variant progression by slots instead? And the warlocky at-will technologist is sounding like a better and better idea.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Like DemonWolfZero, I have also played this class. And it really allows for variety. Mine is geared towards animals. Made for the pasty, ill coordinated, urban dweller who wishes she were a ranger or druid. It is entertaining. Real fun for showing the local wizard's cabal that magic don't make you special.

 

[RangerWickett]

It is a bit old, but The Fantastic Science is now available!

 

[Kelleris]

A bit old? RW, this thread is ancient. But, in honor of its resurrection, I’ll go back over the thread and mention how I dealt with some of the problems various people pointed out.

If the teaser, or the book itself, or the recent review make you wonder about anything, this thread is as good as any to deal with your questions – just post and I’ll try to answer to your concerns.

No, I already own a number of books which cover the subject in some way or another, and wouldn't be interested in another.

This is an understandable feeling, but I’d encourage anyone with an interest in technology in a fantasy setting to take a look at The Fantastic Science. Anyone who wants to spice up their campaign with a new spellcasting tradition – analogous to psionic powers, although quite different in both form and function – can make good use of these devices simply by making them magical in nature.

I don't like getting peanut butter in my chocolate.

There’s not a whole lot I could do to mitigate this, but there are guidelines included in TFS for exploring the interaction of technology and magic. If you’re at all interested in including magic/technological tensions in the game, I think I have some good ideas that'll help you make that concept mechanically interesting to your players.

You had me at "technology" then lost me with “technology as magic.”

Well, if technology is all you’re interested in, there’re lots of device effects you can use in TFS – about 230, in fact, and presented in a format that makes it easy to tweak their effects and quantify them in d20 terms. Appendix A even includes guidelines for converting the spell-description-like devices into technology-based “magical items.” You’d never need to use the class itself to get a lot of use out of TFS.

On the flip side of the coin, the 200+ quasi-magical effects in TFS are simple to convert into spells for your characters. And of course there are guidelines for that too.

I fear that, no matter your best efforts, the Artificer problem (i.e. sounds cool, but in actual play has some serious drawbacks) will remain for any class structure or concept you use.

I was never sure from the responses what precisely this worry consisted in, but there are several measures taken to ensure that the technologist is no more of a pain to deal with than the wizard (take that qualification for what you will).

With the integrated use of craft points and the automatic acquisition of devices (like the wizard’s automatic acquisition of new spells – I don’t see why a device would be harder to design and build than a spell would be to research and master), you’ll never get a situation where the PCs spend a few months waiting on the technologist. If you do have a few months to work with, of course, the wizardly item-crafter and the technologist master-worker will both be happy, but it isn’t necessary for balancing the class.

The one thing that makes the technologist more of a pain than the wizard is the physical weight of the large number of devices to which a high-level technologist has access. I personally don’t think this is a huge problem, but as I mentioned elsewhere you can completely ignore the weight of the devices and the class will remain balanced. Just assume technologists are resourceful little packrats and you're good to go.

I didn't like the example at all. Steampunk is much more acceptable to me than Barrier Peaks freakish high-tech, especially when it's thoroughly and without explanation mixed with magical effects such as demiplanes and defiling. I'd be interested in any better ideas for game mechanics for a Technologist, though.

I’m not sure why “demiplanes and defiling” are automatically magical effects, given that pocket dimensions of various sorts and reality-warping technology with unpleasant effects on living beings are both fairly common science-y items.

Of course, I’d also like to think that I have some good mechanics for the technologist, but I can’t talk about it all here… Is there anything specific you’d like to know, or problems that you feel go unsolved in current efforts?

I usually don't like neither advancing the typical D&D level of technology nor having magic common enough to become technology, and as such I would not likely buy such a book.

But I really think it's a cool idea, and would make a great d20 Modern game set in a fantasy 1800 western world, for instance with a Jules Verne style, or why not even Lovecraft.

In Appendix A you’ll find the Shadow Technologist, useable for anything from a Jules Verne class to an insane, Cthulhu-inspired scientist. In addition, those rules I mentioned for converting device effects into technological “magical” items include rules for determining the resulting device’s Modern-style purchase DC, so you can get all kinds of strange, lost technologies with which to populate such a setting from the material presented in the book.

Hmm.... well, I'd not so much be interested in a CLASS that somehow uses technology, what I'd be more interested in, is mechanical 'magical' items.

Whoops, I’ve already discussed this aspect. You’ll have to do some work yourself, but I’m quite proud of the diversity and interestingness of the device effects I’ve produced. There are surprisingly few reprints of PHB effects, and even a significant proportion of those have been tweaked to fall more in line with the theme.

Is the Technologist still immune to all magic except his own stuff?

Heh. No, that was an early mistake. Things are much more balanced now – there’s a lot of math behind the balancing of things in this book, but without getting into the tedious number-crunching, you can get a good idea of my thinking by considering the material in Chapter 1. Part of my goal with the book was to make it modification-friendly, and part of fulfilling that intention was making my thought processes as transparent as possible, making TFS easy to dissect and reassemble if you’re so inclined.

I'll go against the flow and say I like the idea, AND the null-space cannon, and while I wouldn't use it in my -current- d20 campaign (which is norse-based), I would use it in a sorta high fantasy magic game. Actually, I'd love coming up with a setting to support it...some world of crumbled empires and ancient ruins, where the evil technologists that destroyed civilization with their awesome weapons of destruction are reviled and the benign mages that shattered their power are adored....

One of the selling points is the -lack- of progress that is possible elsewhere, since technology is only usable by a few.

Still hate steampunk, though. And point-based magic systems.

I basically agree with you here - TFS isn’t really steampunk, though it could be pressed into service. It’s much closer in style to da Vinci style creative science (and indeed we used some of da Vinci’s sketches as artwork), with an eye to fitting in alongside spells aesthetically. You could use it for a steampunk setting, but you also won’t have to cut out a lot of flavor to take it outside such a milieu.

And, Nellisir, your distaste for point-based systems and idea for a campaign setting actually ended up meshing in my solution – the Savant. Savants are an optional variant of the technologist that are essentially inspired scientists (or madmen, as the case may be) who can use their devices at will. They have a somewhat different subset of abilities, but can make use of almost any device in the book without recourse to tracking a pile of points.

If that doesn’t sound appealing, an alternative would be to beef up the modified craft point system that the technologist already employs and allow it to use those to “buy” permanent or charged devices for use created using the mechanical-magical items rules. The result would be much like the Eberron artificer, except that the class would be able to draw from a unique and extensive list of effects specially designed for it. Simply enforce difficult prerequisites for creating these items and you retain the “lack of progress that is possible elsewhere” that is indeed a selling point for the book. (A selling point because it means that TFS is useful in a number of ways that don't demand introducing a society-wide technological advancement into your setting.)

So, those are my thoughts after finishing the work that I started before posting this thread in the first place. I hope that helps satisfy everyone who voted “Yes, but I have some requests” or “No, but I'm willing to negotiate” when this thread first appeared.