Wound/Vitality in 5E

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone. Ever since it first showed up (d20 Star Wars? Unearthed Arcana?), I've loved the idea of a wound/vitality system. Starfinder is going to be using one, and I wanted to discuss how to implement it in 5E. I don't believe we have all the data yet, but let's see:

1. Hit Points, Stamina Points, and Resolve Points. In Starfinder, Hit Points measure the health and robustness of a character, while Stamina Points measure a character's readiness and energy (and can be replenished far more easily). Whenever you take damage, your Stamina Points are depleted before your Hit Points. In other words, you can soak up some hits without too much trouble, but once you start taking damage to your Hit Points, you're taking physical wounds that are much harder to heal quickly.

Starfinder characters also get a third pool of points called Resolve Points, which represent grit and luck. You can spend Resolve Points to power (or enhance) some class features, or to help you stay in a fight longer. Resolve Points also determine whether or not you die if both your Stamina Points and Hit Points are reduced to zero.

You can recover all of your Stamina Points by resting for 10 minutes and spending 1 Resolve Point; Resolve Points and some Hit Points are replenished after an 8-hour rest.

It doesn't look like critical hits bypass "Stamina" points in this version, which could avoid some of the concerns of a VP/WP system. The resolve points powering both class powers and generic recovery is cool, as it could address disparities between mundane classes and supernatural classes.

Such a system helps with descriptions, as you aren't taking hits until you're out of Stamina, and you can have stamina recover faster than actual meat points.

So what do you think? How would you treat the cure spells? I think they'd need a new name, but waiting for Heal to actually heal wounds could be nice; or do what 3E WP/VP did and have only the +X of cure spells go to Wounds.


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[Satyrn]

I think I'd prefer waiting for Heal - and maybe even not have that.

Maybe introduce a spell takes an hour to cast to heal full hp on a long rest. But maybe not even that. Leave magic healing for diseases and stamina andake the wounds require time to heal.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

A lot depends on one's goals for the VP/WP system. For instance, you mention crits not bypassing VP in Starfinder as a positive, but for myself I'd be inclined to say that crits should bypass VP because I see one of the goals of the system as improving realism by adding some uncertainty and danger to combat. If damage doesn't sometimes go straight to WP, what is the distinction between VP and WP actually accomplishing? Might it not be easier just to use something like negative HP rules?

Healing raises similar questions. What do you want healing to accomplish? If one of the goals of the system is to make wounds more serious and long-lasting, letting healing magic restore WP seems to undermine that. But on the other hand, it's healing magic. Being able to close wounds with a spell is a longstanding staple of the genre. Nerfing healing magic's effect on WP seems to undermine that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

For a 5e adaptation, you'd probably do well to replace resolve point with HD, and use 5e hp totals as stamina.

5e's death/dying rules could then be replaced by a point sysyem, health or life points or body or something...

Oh, and inspiration could be adapted to restore a little resolve...

 

[Satyrn]

For a 5e adaptation, you'd probably do well to replace resolve point with HD, and use 5e hp totals as stamina.

5e's death/dying rules could then be replaced by a point sysyem, health or life points or body or something...

Oh, and inspiration could be adapted to restore a little resolve...

Although I'd think we'd be better served by replacing the HD with Resolve.

It just irritates me (and confuses me) that Hit Dice are now something to be spent. Resolve looks like a perfect replacement candidate

 

[Tony Vargas]

Although I'd think we'd be better served by replacing the HD with Resolve.

The name, sure, whatever scans. Retaining the proportion of HD to hp to level though could minimize the redesign required...

 

[Xeviat]

A lot depends on one's goals for the VP/WP system. For instance, you mention crits not bypassing VP in Starfinder as a positive, but for myself I'd be inclined to say that crits should bypass VP because I see one of the goals of the system as improving realism by adding some uncertainty and danger to combat. If damage doesn't sometimes go straight to WP, what is the distinction between VP and WP actually accomplishing? Might it not be easier just to use something like negative HP rules?

Healing raises similar questions. What do you want healing to accomplish? If one of the goals of the system is to make wounds more serious and long-lasting, letting healing magic restore WP seems to undermine that. But on the other hand, it's healing magic. Being able to close wounds with a spell is a longstanding staple of the genre. Nerfing healing magic's effect on WP seems to undermine that.

If crits bypass VP and go straight to WP, then WP would definitely need to scale at some rate so that crits don't become automatic kills once people's damage goes above a certain point. Also, the Assassin and potentially other classes that can force crits (or who just get a lot of benefit out of crit fishing) would need to be addressed.

But using a negative HP track for WP would be an interesting way of doing it. It could even open things up for a more humanoid-centric, less kill all monsters style of game. If players aren't at risk of death until they're in the negatives, then they can be dashing and heroic before and then know to run or surrender when they're in the negatives.

I do really like the idea of easing recovery from combat to combat, so PC strength is easier to determine. Using HD or Resolve or Healing Surges or whatever you want to call them to put a daily limit on how long you'll push a day. HD, though, at 1/level, would allow for too much full HP healing, I think.

Then again, the Healer feat allows for a lot of healing.


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[TheCosmicKid]

If crits bypass VP and go straight to WP, then WP would definitely need to scale at some rate so that crits don't become automatic kills once people's damage goes above a certain point. Also, the Assassin and potentially other classes that can force crits (or who just get a lot of benefit out of crit fishing) would need to be addressed.

That's sort of what I'm talking about. Is "When an assassin nails you through the heart with a stiletto, the result is: you die" a bug, or a feature? I feel like this potential for sudden, life-threatening injury no matter your level is normally a large motivation for VP/WP system proposals. If you don't want a VP/WP system to do that, what do you want it for?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I feel like this potential for sudden, life-threatening injury no matter your level is normally a large motivation for VP/WP system proposals.

Save or Die (or suffer a lasting wound) systems could handle that.

If you don't want a VP/WP system to do that, what do you want it for?

Getting d20 to be playable without a lot of make-wounds-vanish type healing. That's why it crops up in sci-fi and modern games...

 

[Xeviat]

That's sort of what I'm talking about. Is "When an assassin nails you through the heart with a stiletto, the result is: you die" a bug, or a feature? I feel like this potential for sudden, life-threatening injury no matter your level is normally a large motivation for VP/WP system proposals. If you don't want a VP/WP system to do that, what do you want it for?

Like TonyVargas said, it's mostly about changing the perceptions of what HP means. It also makes alternate recovery systems work better without having to eliminate magical healing. But, "cure wounds" should probably "cure wounds" to some degree, just probably not many.

The most damage a non-supernatural weapon attack from a human or very similar race can deal with a single hit is 17 without magic, and that's a 1d12 or 2d6 with 20 Str. Sneak attack gets up there at around 5th level. Other class abilities like rage, Superiority dice, and plenty of magic effects can push it further.

But, "I rolled a 20, there was an assassin sneaking up on you, its stealth with expertise beat your passive perception, you're dead" isn't empowering to the players. That's why I think I'd avoid crits going straight to wounds.


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