Wounds & Vitality system and Hit Dice

[Roman]

I will be introducing a homebrewed variant of the Wounds and Vitality system to my campaign.

A medium sized humanoid will have the following base wound points: 16 + 4 x Con Modifier

Now, I am interested in decreasing the amount of vitality points/hit points that characters (PCs, NPCs & monsters) gain per level, given the fact that they already have a substantial number of wound points right from the beginning. How would you recommend I decrease the size of the hit dice?

My current thinking is to decrease all dice sizes by 2 points (one step) like this:

d12 >>> d10
d10 >>> d8
d8 >>> d6
d6 >>> d4
d4 >>> d2

On top of that, I think negative constitution modifier would be allowed to reduce hit point/vitality point acquisition to 0 per level (but not below that).

What do you think? Any feedback, suggestions and comments are welcome!

 

[Tric]

No offense, but I truly, deeply hate that system. Your choice, of course.

I just don't think it's worth all the extra effort. What do you get? Not much. Realism doesn't take a huge bump or anything.

 

[reanjr]

On top of that, I think negative constitution modifier would be allowed to reduce hit point/vitality point acquisition to 0 per level (but not below that).

I think that's a bad idea. The rest of it seems alright, though.

 

[CrazyDrake]

well, vitality points CAN work, depending on the kind of game you are trying to run, but be careful.

the whole vitality point/wound point concept implies several things, which you may or may not be using.

1) vitality points, representing exertion, heal at a 'per-hour' basis, rather than a 'per-day' basis, in most sysytems. also, once a person runs out of vitality points, he starts losing wound points. they are gained at a 'per-level' basis.

2) wound points, representing physical health, render the charcter exausted if she sufferes any wound damage. additionally, some systems havecritical hits deal wound damage instead of double vitality damage. they are usually fixed, based on constitution.

for low-magic games, this is alright, perhaps even better than the core hit-point system. personally, i don't like it, but i may be baised.

whatever you do, DONT USE THE CRITS GO TO WOUNDS variant. Star Wars d20 uses the vit/wound system, and has critical hits go straight to wounds. at 9th level, when both Jedi an Pistol-using Fighters get to pick up Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Critical, every combat in the game lasts one round (or maybe two, if there are LOTs of bad guys). the winner of the combat is almost always the side that manages to win initative. on the whole, SW d20 isn't a bad system, but the crit problem just got really apsurd.

 

[glass]

I've often thought that the default VP/WP system is the wrong way around. IMO, everyone should get VP, but only the real heroes & villains should get WP. After all, anyone could be lucky and dodge an arrow, but only the likes of Boromir or Achiles could take and arrow and keep on going.

Obviously, big things would have more WP too (and proportionately less VP for the same HD/level).

Not sure of the details, but it's on my list of things to detail up if I ever have the time.


glass.

 

[Roman]

Trick, no problem - to each his own - everybody likes something different.

Reanjr, why is that particular part a bad idea? Could you expand on your thoughts?

Crazy Drake, interesting thoughts. My homebrew wounds & vitality system is somewhat different from the standard one (inspired by Unearthed Arcana) though the principle is the same. For example, although characters get on losing any wound points (and get more penalties for losing more), they are not automatically exhausted. Also, characters tend to get significantly more wound points in my system than in the Unearthed Arcana one. An average character will have about 50% more wound points in my system and a tough character will have about 100% more wound points in my system than in the standard one. Also, in my system characters do not die at 0 wound points, but rather go unconscious and into 'dying/bleeding mode' until they reach -1/4 of their total wound points.

I was planning to have critical hits go straight to wound points, but your story scares me a little. Theoretically the system should not be as lethal as you describe it to be.

For example,

Urtuk the Half-Orc barbarian is fighting a duel to the death with a Firman the Human fighter.

Some stats: (rolled randomly)

Urtuk:
Str. 20/+5
Con. 15/+2
Dex. 14/+2
Level: 9
AC: 19 (Chain Armour +2)
Vitality Points: 80
Wound Points: 25 (Half-Orcs get a +1 bonus to Wound Points)
Weapon: Greatsword +2
Full Attack:
Damage: 2d6 + 9


Firman:
Str. 16/+3
Con. 16/+3
Dex. 15/+2
Level: 9
AC: 19 (Chain Armour +2)
Vitality Points: 75
Wound Points: 28
Weapon: Greatsword + 2
Damage: 2d6 + 6

Arrgh, this is taking too long - have to run to get breakfast before my exam. In any case, one critical hit from either of our heroes cannot kill either of our heroes. On average two critical hits with a greatsword will bring a hero into unconsciousness, but critical hits don't happen all the time by any stretch.

On another note, I was also toying with giving each class a slow progression in wound points, (low [one wound point per three levels], medium [one wound point per two levels] and [high one wound point per level]), but I abandoned the idea as it kind of defeats (partially) the purpose of having wound points in the first place.

 

[Old Drew Id]

We use VP/WP in our d20 Modern campaign using the Star Wars rules where criticals go straight to Wound Points. In addition, we follow the recommendation for VP/WP systems (I think from Chuck Rice) where all guns do 3 dice of damage instead of 2. So our average handgun does 3d6. Rifles usually do 3d8, etc.

We started with first level characters and have played upwards of 80 sessions, with characters currently at level 9. There is gunplay in pretty much every other session, and in that time, only 1 PC has been killed by a critical hit (with a rifle, and this was at level 2). So the criticals are not a serious factor. They provide a healthy fear of death, because even first level mooks with rifles are a serious threat if one of them gets lucky, but they do not make the game too lethal.

As a huge fan of the VP/WP system, let me point out a couple of its other often un-sung advantages:

1) VP's make great "fuel" for special abilities. If you want a custom psionic or magic system in your campaign, or just want to limit any kind of special ability, have it cost VP to use. This completely trumps any of the "mana point" systems I have seen or the "X times per day" systems, which includes the default D&D system. Instead, you have a clear-cut, multi-use point pool that your magic and your health depend on. If you use up your VP's on magic, you have become that much more exhausted and easier to hurt.

2) VP recovery simplifies healing. You don't need a cleric or massive healing spells anymore. 95% of all damage is done to VP's, and they come back on a per-hour basis. So a fight is usually just exhausting, not harmful, and after the fight is over, as long as you didn't take any wound damage, you know that your character is not bleeding and will be fine in a few hours without needing a bandage. VP recovery also is based on hours, not on rest, so you don't have the "dungeons and narcoleptics" effect where the group wants to sleep for eight hours after every encounter.

3) WP's emphasizes the pain of partial damage. Using WP's, when you take WP damage, you become fatigued, and you must make a save or you black out. This is an actual semi-incremental effect on your character, unlike the classic all-or-nothing HP system where you are completely unaffected by damage until that last point of damage drops you to zero and you fall over. True, a more realistic system might have even further increments, so that with each additional point of WP damage you take, you suffer even worse penalties, but the current VP/WP achieves a decent level of incrementation without too much complexity.

4) VP's seperate the Heroes from the Ordinaries. Using the VP/WP "Ordinary" system, you can truly model the "take on 100 stormtroopers" situations, where the bad guys can be swatted down with one shot each, while at the same time, having them be skilled and dangerous enough to be higher level foes. (In a nutshell, Ordinaries get no VP, which means you can fight a group of well-trained 9th level stormtroopers who have good saves, defense scores, and high attack bonuses, and yet the go down as soon as they take one solid hit.)

 

[Nifelhein]

I am going to implement a modified system of the VP&WP to my Midnight game next weekedn (23rd), I made nonlethal wound damage possibe and left the critical hit thing since weapon damage in D&D is much lower than in Star Wars and you don't multiply criticals anymore you shall not have it be that deadly, but I can see it happen and that is mostly what I am after.

I agree with everything Old Drew said too and am looking forward to tweak the classes and magic system even more to allow the Vp to be the place from where any magical ability draws itself.

Right now I have a good variant that seems to fix most problems with D&D compatibility, trolls are not unkillable and also, rpgues should be tweaked, their sneak attack gets overkilling, Star Wars has sneak attack as a prestige class feature only.

 

[Roman]

That is very encouraging! I should note that I run a fantasy game, rather than Sci Fi, so the weapons do deal less damage than in Star Wars. Furthermore, an average character will have 50% more Wound points under my system (which is one reason I want to reduce the amount of VP they get).

However, I do like the fact that a few critical hits can now pose a real threat. This takes away the sense of complacency from the PCs and reduces the "Ha, I don't care that I will face 30 arrows if I approach the city wall without cover - I have 200 hp and most will miss anyway!" syndrome.