Wow, do I hate rolling for stats!

[Piratecat]

My OP was a "whiney observation" post, not a "I want another roll!" post.

Gotcha. Then I'll just offer sympathy.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

I'm the opposite. I can't stand point buy character generation. Everyone comes out the same time and time again. I like having a random character, and thankfully my players feel the same.

I dont see how, as I feel Point Buy gives you more direct customization.

 

[Stumblewyk]

I have to join the conversation on the side of those against random stat generation. I've just become too much of a fan of the balanced party - when everyone has the same number of points to buy their stats with, it makes sure that no one feels like they're playing second fiddle. But that's just personal preference on my part.

All that being said, my absolute favorite character that I've ever played was a "gimped" fighter in 2e. He was a military veteran who had settled down to simpler life as a farmer. When his children grew up and moved away, and his wife died of disease, he decided he'd set out and see the world. So he picked up his trusty old longsword, and stepped out to adventure.

Gareth was middle-aged (and had the stat penalties to prove it) from Level 1, and I didn't roll all that well in the first place for him. But he was fun. He was the grumpy, grizzled old man who was never happy, always assumed the next fight would be his last, and he fought like a madman because of it.

Gareth was wounded pretty severely in one battle, somewhere around 7th level. Deciding he'd seen and done enough, he gathered together what money he had, sold the family farm, and bought himself a tavern in the big city. He literally accomplished nothing exciting in his time, but he's still the character I look back on with the fondest memories.

But in 4e, 3.x, or Pathfinder? I don't know if I could stomach trotting the old man out there.

 

[Sunseeker]

I think your stat system of choice is largely dependent on how you approach the idea of character design. Is your character your stats, or are your stats a reflection of your character?

If the latter is true, you probably prefer point-buy systems, arrays, or generally non-random stat generation setups.

If you are the former, then you probably favor more random rolls, as that is most likely going to generate a unique concept each game, rather than a static "charismatic paladin" or "smart wizard" character each time you make one.


I prefer designing characters through story before choosing stats. It helps me get into character when playing and it allows me to generate a more unified theme for a character. Which again, helps me flesh out the character's personality, abilities, and backstory.

 

[Lidgar]

Lots of good thoughts in this thread. While I prefer random rolls (not the least because it is fun to hassle one another at the table about bad rolls), I can see the appeal of point-buy if you have a predetermined character concept. Random rolls have a way of derailing those plans if they don't pan out.

Just one question for point-buyers - where do the bards come from? Everyone knows that if you have lousy stats, it is assuredly a bard!

 

[hafrogman]

Why not a compromise hybrid of both point buy and random?

I'm always surprised that this answer doesn't seem to come up more often. I personally dislike rolling, due to the large power discrepancies that can result. It's not just if I roll low, either. More often, it's a friend at the table suffering with it, and bringing down the whole game. It can be really frustrating in a long campaign, or if it happens more than once in a row. I do understand the excitement in not knowing what kind of character you'll be playing until the dice stop rolling, but sometimes you have to wonder why Paragon the Wonderelf hangs out with Snake Eyes, the one-eyed, one-armed, one-rolling gnome.

But there should be solutions somewhere in between. Roll stats, so you don't know what they'll be, then normalize them so everyone starts off on even, if not at all flat, footing.

I wonder if anyone has ever used a system like this:

[sblock=Random Point-buy]Roll 1d6 to select the array you'll be using.
Then 3d6 in order to determine where the stats will fall.

1: 18,14,11,10,10,8
2: 18,13,12,10,10,9
3: 17,14,13,11,10,9
4: 17,14,12,11,10,10
5: 16,15,12,12,10,10
6: 16,14,12,12,11,11

Array: 1d6 = 4

Str: 3d6 = 6
Dex: 3d6 = 15
Con: 3d6 = 8
Int: 3d6 = 15
Wis: 3d6 = 12
Cha: 3d6 = 7

My array is 17,14,12,11,10,10.

Strength is the lowest roll, so it gets assigned a 10. Charisma as well. Con of 8 becomes my next highest score, 11. Wisdom is 12, and since Int and Dex were both rolled 15, I can choose which is 17 and which is 14.

Final Scores:

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 11
Wis: 12
Int: 17
Cha: 10

Looks like this guy will make a decent wizard.[/sblock]

 

[The Human Target]

We stopped rolling long ago, and I never want to go back.

Even if you want random rolls, I prefer rolling to see what your high and low stats will be and then using an array or point buy to actually determine them.

 

[Sunseeker]

I wonder if anyone has ever used a system like this:

[sblock=Random Point-buy]Roll 1d6 to select the array you'll be using.
Then 3d6 in order to determine where the stats will fall.

1: 18,14,11,10,10,8
2: 18,13,12,10,10,9
3: 17,14,13,11,10,9
4: 17,14,12,11,10,10
5: 16,15,12,12,10,10
6: 16,14,12,12,11,11

Array: 1d6 = 4

Str: 3d6 = 6
Dex: 3d6 = 15
Con: 3d6 = 8
Int: 3d6 = 15
Wis: 3d6 = 12
Cha: 3d6 = 7

My array is 17,14,12,11,10,10.

Strength is the lowest roll, so it gets assigned a 10. Charisma as well. Con of 8 becomes my next highest score, 11. Wisdom is 12, and since Int and Dex were both rolled 15, I can choose which is 17 and which is 14.

Final Scores:

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 11
Wis: 12
Int: 17
Cha: 10

Looks like this guy will make a decent wizard.[/sblock]

Problematically, this could end you up with a party of 3 wizards and 2 rangers. Interesting, but largely useless and quickly killed in a fight.

Secondly, just looking at attempting to organize your numbers in that manner made my head hurt.

The goal should be simplicity and ease, as assigning stats is one of the first things you do. The first thing you DONT want to do, is confuse the heck out of your players by telling them they need to understand the significance of pi in uncovering the radial geometry of black holes in order make their stats.

Best advice ever, for anything: K.I.S.S.

 

[MrMyth]

"Need" is such a strong word. I dislike it intensely in this context, as the implication is kind of insulting.

Would my player have been able to come up with an interesting concept using point-buy? Sure. The guy doesn't "need" the dice to create a cool concept - he's not creativity-challenged, or something. However, taking inspiration from something outside yourself can lead to avenues (and occasionally heights) you'd not go to on your own.

Sure. But from my own perspective, having a character with some stats high, some stats low - and the interesting RP that provides - is a strength of rolling stats. It's also a very different situation from the actual example here, where a character has a slew of entirely average and mundane stats. Sure, you can find RP potential in 'completely average Joe who can't keep up with the rest of the party'... but it isn't exactly one most people are going to want to play.

For myself, in order for a random roll system to work well, it needs to be able to provide unpredictable results that don't have the potential to cripple your character's effectiveness. The new Gamma World approach is one way to go about that. You can end up with a crazy low Int or Con or whatever, and find plenty of ways to roleplay it... while still being good at whatever you need to be good at. That offers a lot more RP, in my mind, than someone who simply fails at everything.

 

[nedjer]

Point buy to encourage players to get enough defence to spare me from listening to them wailing about how feeble they are for three levels.

And offer round a lucky bag - an inheritance, age-triggered ability, starborn or a royal flush to put some dragon's blood on the vanilla.