D&D (2024) Wrapping up first 2-20 2024 campaign this week, some of my thoughts

Just double checking this are we sure on those numbers? Thats likely part of the problem right there, if its assumed the players can get 22 uncommon items worth of resources every single session at even like 6th level.....I mean that's your problem right there.
I took the number and quote directly from the book, page 121.

I will withhold judgment until I see published adventures from WotC that were specifically designed for the 2024 rules. I guess the first real test will be the new starter set, but I don't imagine this stuff will be too much of an issue for low-level characters. For my own campaigns I'm not worried; I can just recalibrate things like encounter difficulty and monetary/magic rewards to reflect the new expectations. I have some pretty skilled players, so I'm already used to having to toughen things up considerably to give them a realistic challenge. I'd rather allow them to craft items and build bastions and then double the number of monsters than have to limit their options in order to fit with the guidelines (and remember, they're just that) in the rulebook.
 

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I will challenge this a bit.

1) Time: If the DM has established a setting with long downtimes...then suddenly changing it to "oh there is no time for that" when the players start to craft things doesn't really work.

Sure, but then the DM needs to think of other downtime money drains like bastions. Or the crafting can quickly escalate. Which is fine, but the DM will then need to adjust.

2) Money: Its true that the DM can be super stingy...but this starts to go against a setting if its done to an extreme. When every attempt to pickpocket turns up empty, and even dragons don't have hoards anymore....the players start to question what is going on.
Not advocating the DM be super stingy, just that they come at it eyes open and know what they might be getting themselves into.
Also allowing magic item shops is a choice, and what's stocked in them is also the DMs choice.

Further, as this OP was based on a module....what does the module assume as treasure? The DM may just be following the treasures rules the module already established.
That's a good question. Though the big treasure shown isn't from the module's items but appears to be from crafting and purchasing (well maybe the legendary items are from the module? we know the rings were purchased/crafted). So another question is, does the module have anything to say about downtime, or is it purely DMs discretion.
 


That's a good question. Though the big treasure shown isn't from the module's items but appears to be from crafting and purchasing (well maybe the legendary items are from the module? we know the rings were purchased/crafted). So another question is, does the module have anything to say about downtime, or is it purely DMs discretion.
this is also perhaps a backwards compatibility issue.

When we think of gold in older modules....lets be honest gold has so little value in 2014 5e that its really unimportant how much you get. It can be gobs and gobs, doesn't matter all that much.

But...the second you add in a crafting/purchasing system its a brand new ballgame, and its possible the older modules just aren't set up with that assumption in mind, and so the gold values are wildly inflated with what newer modules might use considering gold is much more useful.
 

I mean...if the core books are telling you what the expected magic items are....by definition they can't be overgenerous....that is literally the expected baseline.
The passage is actually quite confusing.

It starts off fine "Adventurers sometimes discover large caches of treasure, the accumulated wealth of a large group of creatures or the belongings of a single powerful creature that hoards valuables. The Random Treasure Hoard table can help you create such a cache."

Ok great, guidelines like this are appreciated!

But then it goes to "As a rough benchmark, aim to roll on the Random Treasure Hoard table about once per game session."

So the default is a large treasure horde once per session? that seems WAY excessive and likely to fill up a party with magic items FAST. Especially if the default is to not worry about magic items.
 

Personally I think the "expected" magic items table in the DMG is overkill, but they also don't distinguish between permanent and consumable items. Also a bit annoying that they give a chart for expected number of items without stating (as far as I know) the number of people in their default party.

But personally PCs in my group will never have 2 or more legendary items each. Good thing these are just guidelines. I just hope my group doesn't report me to the Counsel of Wizards on the coast. :)

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Why is it WotC's fault? Seriously. We have DMs for a reason. Some groups are not going to have an issue with the PCs glowing like Christmas trees but figure out how to adjust encounters to compensate, others are going to want to severely limit magic (crafted or not), others are going to find a happy compromise.

D&D is a toolkit, it doesn't tell you exactly what to build.

Crafting items takes both time and money, something the DM is usually in full control of. Common and uncommon items don't require much investment, but it cranks up pretty significantly from there.

I'd say as big or even bigger, is allowing the purchase (and giving the group the means to do so) of significant magic items (Rare+) since it takes so much less time. Especially if items the PCs can really synergize with are available.

I'm quoting both of you because its the same response, mostly. Mort can skip the first paragraph as it's more for Oofta.

I'm a big fan of DMs. I think they are what make this game what it is. I think bad DMing is the reason for most of the complaints we see around here. A good DM can also make up for most issues in a system. The issues in this thread included. DMs here aren't the problem, and good DMs will adjust for these issues over time. We saw this in 2015 and 2016 as DMs adjusted to some of 5e's CR issues.

My issue is with item crafting, not DMs having to encounter balance. We see in the DMG, both 2014 and 2024, guidelines on gold rewards and on magic items by level. In 2024, under "awarding magic items" we read;

"The table shows how many items of each rarity are meant to be handed out during each of the four tiers of play."

This leads me to believe that WotC knows that magic items have an impact on encounter balance. The number for the entire campaign, for rare magic items is 23. We will come back to that. Let's continue.

Next we see guidelines for gold found in "Treasure hoards" by CR. Under "Adventure Rewards" we read;

"As a rough benchmark, aim to roll on the Random Treasure Hoard table about once per game session."

Notice here, that for a CR 0-4, the lowest tier, the amount is, on average, 500 GP per game session. Keep this number in mind because it's important. Also looking at higher levels, you'll notice 5 and 6 digits in this number. Remember that too.

Under crafting magic items, we see another table for crafting magic items, crazy. This table shows time required and cost in gold sorted by rarity. For rarities up to rare items, it takes no more than 2000 gold and no more than 50 days. It takes less, of both time and gold, for lesser rarities. The gold amount is trivial under the guidelines outlined above, if you remember that number, even for low level parties.

It continues;

"Assistants. Characters can combine their efforts to shorten the crafting time. Divide the time needed to create an item by the number of characters working on it. Normally, only one other character can assist you, but the DM might allow more assistants."

So under the rules as written, a level 3 party can craft a rare magic item every 25 days. If you average 3 days per session, which is a blistering pace, a party of four can craft 2 rare items every 25 days with over 1000 gp left over. If you start increasing levels or decreasing the pace, the money situation gets out of hand even at low levels.

If we revisit that table on treasure hoards, that you should award once per session. We can see that a level 5 party makes enough in one session to craft multiple rare items. A level 11 party makes enough in 2 sessions to craft the entire 23 rare items suggested for the campaign.

A single session of level 17 play provides enough money to create every single magic item from rarities rare and below that is recommended for the whole campaign with hundreds of thousands left over. A level 11 party can garner enough in a handful of sessions.

What does this all mean? It means that given WotC's own guidelines, the players have enough gold to overwhlem the system in magic items. If you assume 2014's guidance on downtime stands, as no advice to not have downtime was included, the problems becomes obvious.

Under WotC's own advice, following their own guidelines, the item crafting they provided easily outpaces suggested magic item rewards. The implication is that WotC expects fast campaigns, in regard to in world time, to limit that number, or they just don't expect you to use the system at all.

The system, as written, is busted. It forces arbitrary time limits on campaigns and throws out a long history of downtime in those very campaigns. If you want to have longer campaigns with downtime, your only recourse is to simply throw out the crafting system or ignore published guidelines all together.


EDIT: You can also, just raise encounter difficulty to absurd levels. But I feel like just not using this silly crafting system is far preferable.

EDIT2: Oofta posted one of the tables mentioned above. Thanks Oofta!
 
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If the module's underlying expectations are that the group will mostly stock with these items, but there is also room/time/money for crafting and purchasing items, your very likely to have an imbalance that impacts play.
that was based on the DMG rules, are you blaming the DM for following WotC’s rules about crafting?
 



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