Write this game for adults

[Zireael]

Ok, first off. If you want D&D Next to be written at the level of Young Adult Fiction, you would be okay with graphic representations of rape, sex, substance abuse, and a variety of other elements because I can guarantee you that a 30 second perusal of your local library's Young Adult Fiction (13 yo to 20 ish) section will find novels with every one of those.

The days of Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys are a LONG way behind us. Let's not forget that The Hunger Games is a YA fiction novel about children being forced to murder other children for the entertainment of the masses. D&D has NEVER been written to this level. The old World of Darkness books would be considered YA fiction now.

You know, you are right, and those facts many of us here missed in this discussion. So it is even more silly for D&D to shy away from such elements completely.

 

[Mallus]

Now, as far as language goes, I'd peg an 8th grade reading level at about right. Most mainstream novels are written at about this level of complexity. You can certainly encapsulate any concepts you care to talk about within that framework without any real difficulty. When you start getting higher up, all you do is make it more opaque, not more informative, or even more interesting. There's a reason Steven King routinely sells millions of copies and someone like James Joyce doesn't.

I'm finding this whole reading level thing deeply, and perhaps meanly, amusing. I'm with you, well-written text at an 8th grade level is fine. It's good enough for the New York Times. Also...

Recognize the passage below?

"A few light taps upon the pane made him turn to the window. It had begun to snow again. He watched sleepily the flakes, silver and dark, falling obliquely against the lamplight. The time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. Yes, the newspapers were right: snow was general all over Ireland. It was falling on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, falling softly upon the Bog of Allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous Shannon waves. It was falling, too, upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried. It lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead."

It's some of my favorite English prose. I practically tear up by the time I get to "... falling faintly and faintly falling... ". According to the Flesch-Kincaid Index, it's at an 8th grade reading level.

It's the last paragraph of "The Dead".

By James Joyce.

 

[Piratecat]

I'm suddenly laughing, because I'm equating YA fiction with the new category of Supernatural Teen Romance. Can you imagine? "Play this race if you want to fall in love with a vampire that glitters."

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm suddenly laughing, because I'm equating YA fiction with the new category of Supernatural Teen Romance. Can you imagine? "Play this race if you want to fall in love with a vampire that glitters."

So, taking from YTF, we'd get themes of "Emo", with a background of "my patents make me do chores" and a class of "whatever man". Combined with some hearty bishonen rape fantasies which are ended tragically when both parties commit suicide.

Yeah, if that's "adult" now I'll stick to my Magic Schoolbus.

 

[DiomedesRex]

And in any case, contrary to Morrus' absurd hyperbole, the PHB did spend a good half a page expounding upon the Dragonborn(and every other race), then there is of course, the additional material found in the Dragonborn racial book.

Yeah, I don't have an issue with saying 'they're scaly', but it's disingenuous to imply that is all that is said about the Dragonborn.

 

[Mallus]

"Play this race if you want to fall in love with a vampire that glitters."

"Play this class if you want to choose between two wonderful boyfriends and murder people on live TV".

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm finding this whole reading level thing deeply, and perhaps meanly, amusing. I'm with you, well-written text at an 8th grade level is fine. It's good enough for the New York Times. Also...

Recognize the passage below?

"A few light taps upon the pane made him turn to the window. It had begun to snow again. He watched sleepily the flakes, silver and dark, falling obliquely against the lamplight. The time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. Yes, the newspapers were right: snow was general all over Ireland. It was falling on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, falling softly upon the Bog of Allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous Shannon waves. It was falling, too, upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried. It lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead."

I don't remember that many phrases keeping text to a low reading level, but it has been awhile since I learned it, and perhaps the simpler vocabulary there is compensating. In any case, I'm willing to concede on the "8th grade reading level" part. I'm not willing to concede on "like a newspaper".

Here's a link to a USA today travel section, which is the most flattering, non-political example I could find in a short search: World's strangest tourist attractions - USATODAY.com. A sample:

The Gnome Reserve
Devon, England
You may have seen animal reserves before, but what about a home for garden gnomes? The Gnome Reserve in Devon, England, has more than 1,000 gnomes scattered free-range-style around the park's four acres. (The antique gnomes are confined to the on-site museum.) Visitors can pose for pictures with the statues, using the provided fishing rods and gnome hats to blend in. Dogs are welcome to visit, but they must be on leashes so they don't scare the gnomes.

​

It's chirpy, staccato, with just enough phrases to escape Dick and Jane alusions. It's not terrible, but it is a style written in a hurry, for a disposable medium, to be read and then tossed aside. For something in a hardback, I'd like something a little closer to Stephen King than that--not Stephen King, but merely enough of a smidgeon along that route to not remind me of newspapers. (Not writing dialog, typically, is of course going to severely restrict what can be done, and probably should.)

Edit: It also occurs to me just now that, given the reputation of the newspapers in Great Britain, that perhaps "like a newspaper" has very different connotations for different people. For me, it means something roughly akin to "written quickly by someone whose main skill is asking impertinent questions of people and then largely failing to grasp the answers." YMMV.

 

[Mallus]

I don't remember that many phrases keeping text to a low reading level, but it has been awhile since I learned it, and perhaps the simpler vocabulary there is compensating.

It's a good example of simpler language being beautiful. Also, a classic!

In any case, I'm willing to concede on the "8th grade reading level" part.

Heh... I brought out the big guns, Joyce!

I'm not willing to concede on "like a newspaper".

I don't want 5e to sound like a contemporary newspaper, either, not even the NYT. Though I'd be happy if portions channeled H. L. Mencken doing his "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" thing (newspapers used to be cool!).

Try this on for size: it's not the complexity of Gygax's language that explains its popularity (in some quarters). It's his voice. The man behind the words shines through. His rule books are written like good essays, which don't to remove the author's personality, idiosyncrasies, the "I" from the text. They aren't just instruction manuals, they're this interesting character reading you an instruction manual, using language which would had been comically ill-suited for task if it didn't wind up resonating with so many people.

Lively writing with a point of view doesn't require a surfeit of complexity. It's just that Gary's did.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Try this on for size: it's not just the complexity of Gygax's language that explains its popularity (in some quarters). It's his voice. The man behind the words shines through. His rule books are written like good essays, which don't to remove the author's personality, idiosyncrasies, the "I" from the text. They aren't just instruction manuals, they're this interesting character reading you an instruction manual, using language which would had been comically ill-suited for task if it didn't wind up resonating with so many people.

I'll gladly agree to all of that, with the additional caveat that part of what makes it interesting is that Gygax has something to say. There is some thought behind it, and it is that thought that shines through the personality. Maybe we've gotten so jaded that it is difficult to have anything more to say about pretending to be an elf.

 

[Umbran]

Ok, first off. If you want D&D Next to be written at the level of Young Adult Fiction, you would be okay with graphic representations of rape, sex, substance abuse, and a variety of other elements because I can guarantee you that a 30 second perusal of your local library's Young Adult Fiction (13 yo to 20 ish) section will find novels with every one of those.

Reading level is about reading comprehension - grammar complexity and breadth of vocabulary. It has *nothing* to do with the subject content of the work. A passage at a given level could be written about unicorns and flowers, or a grisly battle scene.

Let us not confuse "reading level" for "content appropriate for a given age", as they are not by any means the same thing.