Write this game for adults

[Crazy Jerome]

Right. Just like the hobby's been doing for the last few decades? The only recent influxes have been the children of gamers and a few of their friends.

By the audience widening, I am specifically talking about those people who might like the game later, but can't handle it now. This is not going to include many adults, as gaming isn't rocket science. (Adults will like it, or they won't.) You can write the game dumbed down to try to get every 11 year old that you might possibly get. You'll lose the people who don't like being patronized, which happens to include a fair number of 11 year olds. The patronized ones are probably lost for good. The 11 year old that is not quite ready to handle the more interesting text may still be available at 14 or 17 or 20.

Of course, most people won't have any interest at 11 or later, no matter how you write it. That's why games only sell so much, and have been on the decline. A lot of those people in the 70s and 80s that bought because there wasn't much to do, wouldn't have bought then if they'd had the options we have now.

It's not question of being elitist. Gaming is at heart too simple to be elitist. It's "pretend" all dressed up. Rather, it's a question of appealing to the kind of person who is going to want to roleplay in a tabletop game in the first place. There has to be some substance there to so appeal. With real substance, it helps to write about it as it is, not dumb it down. A good fantasy novel is rarely fine literature, but it is also rarely, say, a "junior" sports biography written to get an 11 year old to read something, anything.

I forget which sci/fi author wrote it, but there is some statement along the lines of, "stories are told of all kinds of aliens, but every science fiction story we've ever seen has been written and read by 100% humans." Humanity is complex. Ultimately, games are a form of art, lowbrow as it may be, that is about exploring humanity--sometimes from some obscure angles. This is the real substance of the hobby. That's no call to make game procedures full of sophistry or other pretension. Sure, make those as clear as you can. But don't cheat the substance for some kind of false appeal to child--one that ultimately won't work, anyway.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

The truth is, it's easy to write convoluted stuff that is at "a higher grade level," and it's harder to write effectively in a way that communicates simply and directly. Writing to an 8th grade level instead of a 10th grade level is a valuable skill, not a sign that someone is talking down to you.

(I also suspect that most people couldn't recognize "12th grade writing" or "8th grade writing" or "6th grade writing" if they saw it.)

Most people don't recognize the difference, because they haven't bothered to learn. It's not all that useful of a skill, unless you write. However, most people can sense the difference between, say, newspaper writing and something a bit more or less engaging. For example, very few people tolerate fiction written at an 8th grade level. Heck, most 8th graders can't even stand it. (That would be around age 14 for you folks not in the USA.)

Furthermore, it is perfectly possible to write "convoluted" material that says nothing in particular, and not because of the grade level. Universities are full of it, as are many marketing pamphlets.

The valuable skill is consciously choosing the grade level for your audience and writing in that. Writing at a higher grade level conveys nuance. With a lot of work, you could convey this nuance in a lower grade level, but it will take a lot of text.

Do you think anyone here had trouble following what I just wrote?

 

[Oni]

Orko, the brownies in Willow, 7-zark-7, Jar Jar Binks. I didn't/wouldn't like these things when I was young. (Lucas almost added R2D2 to the list, but as those films don't actually exist outside of a poorly remembered nightmare, he's still fine.)

I don't think it's age that is the problem. It's a problem with the writers thinking young people are too stupid to like anything more intelligent than bright flashing colours, loud noises and cutesy, loud, stupid furries. For example, if your space flight sim shooter isn't very good make everything brightly coloured and instead of a human main character, make him an anthropomorphized fox/dragon. "Wow, it's amazing and so cute." No it's not.

Maybe I'm wrong and they aren't very bright. Perhaps I'm one of the lucky ones that had a boring mother that didn't do recreational drugs when I was in the womb.

But sometimes kids and even adult's like those things, and not because they are mentally deficient. They just do, people have different taste. For instance I liked the brownies in Willow when I was a kid, heck, I still do. My personal taste aside, I don't think the problem is having those things, it's just doing them well and having depth beyond them. Like all things it comes down to execution, not everything has to be appreciated on the same level, and if it can be appreciated on multiple levels (Pixar movies for example) then all the better.

 

[Incenjucar]

Fortunately, unlike in the 80s, we now have some very good examples of comedy relief characters who are not entirely insufferable thanks to the recent boom in quality animation.

 

[TimA]

I just realized somthing that been nagging at me for a long time, I'd like to have the core rule books written for adults.

Flipping through the pages of 3e and 4e PHB I get the filling that the audience they are written for are teenagers and not grown up, I can't put my finger on it but the entire book feels PG13 and overly PC.

When I read through the 2e PHB it's feels like its one guy telling another about the game without any pussyfooting around, starting from the art (partially clothed females FTW EDIT: that was a bad jest that went out of hand, I apologize to every one who zeroed on it like a hit seeking missile) and down through how everything is told to the player, the book expect you to not be a dick and be a grown up around the table.

I would like to know what you guys think about this, I would much prefer having a book written by adults for adults and then having a kiddie friendly version, preferably in starter set boxes that I could buy for my small cousins.

What is your take?

Warder

That would be fine, but lets not make it TOO adult. Either in theme obviously or in tone more generally.

For an example I recently visited a group that was looking for players. We had a nice night of boardgaming "to get to know each other" drinking and generally BSing about gaming.

All good right?

The next day an email goes out saying that beer is fine at a board game but theres no drinking at regular games, you must attend or give actual written (email is okay i think) notice 24 hours ahead of time or you'll be asked to leave the group.

Now I get that flakes are a pain in the butt and no one wants people to be completely hammered during a game.

But these guys idea of an "adult game" was a stuffed shirt contest that was more like a job then a fun diversion.

Half of us never talked to the people running the game after getting that email and put together our own thing.

So I think before saying a game should be "adult" you have to define what adult means. Otherwise you wind up lameness masquerading as maturity.

 

[RHGreen]

But sometimes kids and even adult's like those things, and not because they are mentally deficient. They just do, people have different taste. For instance I liked the brownies in Willow when I was a kid, heck, I still do. My personal taste aside, I don't think the problem is having those things, it's just doing them well and having depth beyond them. Like all things it comes down to execution, not everything has to be appreciated on the same level, and if it can be appreciated on multiple levels (Pixar movies for example) then all the better.

I could go with taste/style normally, but not in the area I'm thinking of.

Jim Carrey is the perfect example.

A baby lays there and its parents pull silly faces and make funny noises. The baby loves it. Then it grows up and it wants more from life. If its parents kept pulling silly faces and making funny noises when it turned 10, it would probably go to social services and ask for adoption on grounds of mental cruelty.

Jim Carrey spent his whole career (bar The Dead Pool) entertaining people who hadn't advanced past the baby stage, by pulling silly faces and making funny noises. Even he ran out of fans who decided they wanted more from life.



My point is: I want D&D to have a bit more adult intelligent content and feel, in the same way I couldn't live in a world where every film had Jim Carrey in it, pulling silly faces and making funny noises. (However, I can live with the Truman Show.) Just because some people are undemanding and like him does it mean we all have to and ommit everything else.

 

[am181d]

We 30- somethings are the ones with all the money. We're either buying it for ourselves or buying it for our kids. It had better well cater to us!

When I was 10 or so, my parents bought me my first RPG. The game contributed - in a small way - to my education. It helped sharpen my vocabulary and my math skills, amongst other things. The world of literature it led me into exercised my mind, and was part of the reason I grew up with above average literary skills.

The game didn't dumb itself down for me. It challenged me. And that challenge is what made it attractive.

I owe Gygax & Co. a good deal.

And that very challenging nature is WHY my parents bought me a weird uncool game. The role of these games was beyond that of mere entertainment.

But Gygax wasn't writing the AD&D DMG for your parents. He was writing it for you. I don't want Wizards fine-tuning D&D so that it's more enjoyable for you-now than it would have been for you-then.

 

[Oni]

I could go with taste/style normally, but not in the area I'm thinking of.

Jim Carrey is the perfect example.

A baby lays there and its parents pull silly faces and make funny noises. The baby loves it. Then it grows up and it wants more from life. If its parents kept pulling silly faces and making funny noises when it turned 10, it would probably go to social services and ask for adoption on grounds of mental cruelty.

Jim Carrey spent his whole career (bar The Dead Pool) entertaining people who hadn't advanced past the baby stage, by pulling silly faces and making funny noises. Even he ran out of fans who decided they wanted more from life.



My point is: I want D&D to have a bit more adult intelligent content and feel, in the same way I couldn't live in a world where every film had Jim Carrey in it, pulling silly faces and making funny noises. (However, I can live with the Truman Show.) Just because some people are undemanding and like him does it mean we all have to and ommit everything else.

What exactly, might I ask, is adult intelligent content? By that I mean, what are some examples of the sort of thing you want to be in the books? Does that just mean big sentences and complex words, or maybe grittier subject matter, or what? And what exactly are you protesting against? What sins have past books committed, what specific childish content has bothered you?

 

[Morrus]

But Gygax wasn't writing the AD&D DMG for your parents. He was writing it for you. I don't want Wizards fine-tuning D&D so that it's more enjoyable for you-now than it would have been for you-then.

I keep rereading that, and I can't for the life of me figure out what you said! Ironic given the subject matter, but it's probably my fault

 

[Leatherhead]

It should be written for adults. Mostly because that is something that will actually get kids to read it. Kids love to do things that make them seem more mature. They play video games with "mature" ratings and stuff like that.

Incidentally, I wasn't born before AD&D. So Gygax was, in fact, writing it for my parents.