WTF is "cold iron", and why's it so special?

[mamba]

They don't exist regardless of your opinion. You did evade, you were wrong, and you haven't been consistent. Grow up.

of course the words natural and unnatural exist regardless of anyone’s opinion, and we still (would) have ‘unnatural’ despite everything being ‘natural’, because we are flawed and superstitious beings that come up with weird ideas about things we cannot actually explain.

We just manage to actually explain more over time, but that still means we started out at ‘unnatural’ for many things that crossed over to ‘natural’ by now

EDIT: seems we got a mod post in parallel (both say ‘a moment ago’ right now)

 

[Maxperson]

of course the words natural and unnatural exist regardless of anyone’s opinion, and we still (would) have ‘unnatural’ despite everything being ‘natural’, because we are flawed and superstitious beings that come up with weird ideas about things we cannot actually explain.

We just manage to actually explain more over time, but that still means we started out at ‘unnatural’ for many things that crossed over to ‘natural’ by now

EDIT: seems we got a mod post in parallel (both say ‘a moment ago’ right now)

I don't agree that this is something we can't explain due to be flawed. Even though everything consists of naturally occurring elements from the universe, not everything that exists is natural. Natural things occur in nature without something living forcing its will to make it happen. Humans are natural, but the car and my garage are not natural. The limestone cave created over eons by erosion is natural, but the mine created by some 49ers looking for gold is not. The gold they found was natural, but the wedding ring created from it is not.

 

[Umbran]

I mean if you guys were correct, the word unnatural would not even exist since literally nothing can be unnatural by your definition.

Because... history doesn't exist?

The word "unnatural" dates back to the early 15th century - early to pre-Renaissance, a time in which mankind had much less understanding of the physical word than it does now. Use of the term to mean "artificial" is attested from 1746. Its meaning of "not in accord with accepted moral standards" meanwhile goes back to the 1520s.

So, the word is more associated with the moral state of being than the physical state of being. Since we are stil concerned with morals, the word still exists.

 

[Umbran]

Natural things occur in nature without something living forcing its will to make it happen. Humans are natural, but the car and my garage are not natural.

Termite mounds. Beaver dams. Bird nests. These things exist because a living thing forced them to happen. But, they are required for the "natural" existence of the animals that build them. How, then can those things be unnatural?

Check this out - humans digestion has evolved to take advantage of cooked foods, such that cooked foods are now the "natural" diet of humans.

Arguing about what counts as natural vs unnatural first requires us to understand why we want to make the distinction. If you rest on the "definition" of the word first, there will always be edge cases to cause argument, because, ironically, the natural word is not clean cut into natural and unnatural things.

 

[Inukai]

Termite mounds. Beaver dams. Bird nests. These things exist because a living thing forced them to happen. But, they are required for the "natural" existence of the animals that build them. How, then can those things be unnatural?

Check this out - humans digestion has evolved to take advantage of cooked foods, such that cooked foods are now the "natural" diet of humans.

Arguing about what counts as natural vs unnatural first requires us to understand why we want to make the distinction. If you rest on the "definition" of the word first, there will always be edge cases to cause argument, because, ironically, the natural word is not clean cut into natural and unnatural things.

If the definition is that nothing can be unnatural because it is caused/ created by people (who I think we can all agree are natural), then the following things are also natural: climate change, deforestation, and extinction threats to varying species due to the first two. If these are all natural occurrences, then where does the unnatural begin?

 

[Umbran]

If these are all natural occurrences, then where does the unnatural begin?

Why does it have to begin anywhere? What's the need for the distinction? Why do you want to be able to term something "unnatural"?

 

[Inukai]

Why does it have to begin anywhere? What's the need for the distinction? Why do you want to be able to term something "unnatural"?

Because I believe there is a distinction. Something "natural" is "of nature", and something "unnatural" is not. I admit there are some fuzzy lines, but they are lines nonetheless. A beehive, to me, is "of nature"; it is made from an instinctual drive. The computer I'm currently typing on is not.
And I think that's the difference, for me at least.
The "why" is because it makes sense to me.

 

[Celebrim]

It's steel that has been hammer forged, and it's not. Or at least, the reason it's powerful is that it is the product of unnatural forces.

Every metal weapon may be assumed to be cold forged iron unless otherwise specifically stated - mithril, bronze, whatever.

There are some rules in later editions that make cold forged iron a special sort of magically forged steel made with magic without fire from special sorts of magical iron, but that's all unnecessary and a little bit silly in my opinion. You can of course follow that if you like it.

 

[Bohandas]

If I was going to have it be an unusual material, I'd make it plain iron that isn't steel.

As for natural vs unnatural, has anybody pointed out yet that petrochemicals come from wild algae?

 

[Umbran]

The "why" is because it makes sense to me.

Ah. But the words "natural" and "unnatural" are trying to describe the universe around us. And the universe is under no obligation to make sense. At best, we must change our view to match reality, not insist reality matches our views.

It has been made abundantly clear that what "made sense" to humans a thousand years ago was very often just wrong. Today, it "makes sense" to a lot of people to discriminate between fellow humans based on color of skin, nation of origin, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. That's how well "makes sense to me" works as a route to understanding.

We make progress in understanding not by choosing what makes sense, but instead based on what we can demonstrate with reasoning and experiment. So, greater reasoning than that would be called for.