Wu Jen spells... kinda.... suck?

[Jalkain]

On a related note, how does Elemental Mastery work for the new wu jen? Do you have to learn all the relevant spells (ones listed as All, plus your chosen element) to get the bonuses (as for 1st Ed), or do you simply select a element and then get bonuses automatically for those spells?

 

[Stormrunner]

The latter - at 6th level you pick an element and from then on you get bonuses with spells of that element. The old way required a lot of nitpicky bookkeeping, plus if the DM introduced, say, a new Earth spell, suddenly your Master of Earth was no longer a Master until he learned the new spell.

And under 3.0 Cloud Chariot was 8th level (!) - just as it was (under the name Cloud Trapeze) in 1rst Ed. OA. Of course, in 1.0 wu jen did not get Teleport or Teleport Without Error.

As far as wu jen "taking up a lot of space" - well, WotC obviously has decided that there will be one Oriental base class per 3.0 splatbook, and where else would you put the wu jen but in Complete Arcane? And if you're going to include the wu jen you have to include their highly idiosyncratic spell list - it's a major part of the "flavor" of the class.

"My wizard can't cast all these wu jen spells!" Yep, and a cleric can't cast all druid spells, either. The different spell list is one of the things that make the classes distinct from each other.

 

[ARandomGod]

I haven't read about the wu jen at all, so my comment is based stricktly on what I've read here

"My wizard can't cast all these wu jen spells!" Yep, and a cleric can't cast all druid spells, either. The different spell list is one of the things that make the classes distinct from each other.

Yea, but as a cleric I can think of some druidic spells I would LIKE to cast!

 

[Aeric]

Have you looked at Complete Arcane? There's a whole lot of Wu Jen spells in there, and a lot of them look pretty darn powerful.

 

[Saeviomagy]

"My wizard can't cast all these wu jen spells!" Yep, and a cleric can't cast all druid spells, either. The different spell list is one of the things that make the classes distinct from each other.

I think the bigger complaint is

"My complete arcane, the book supposed to be benefiting wizards, has 1/3rd of the spells in it devoted to wujens. And half of those spells are crap versions of other spells that wujens already get. And the wujen is a lame-ass minor-flavour adjustment of a wizard."

That's the complaint. 1/3rd of the spells being only available to a class that most people will never use is terrible. Compare it to, say, complete divine or complete warrior, where the introduced core classes had virtually zero spells in the list devoted to them.

The simple act of allowing existing arcane casters to use most of the wujen spells would have eliminated all the complaints.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Have you looked at Complete Arcane? There's a whole lot of Wu Jen spells in there, and a lot of them look pretty darn powerful.

That's the clincher, however. A lot of them LOOK powerful. Upon further inspection, however, they're not as powerful as some lower-level Wu Jen spells, as I have stated above.

P.S.- wanna hear something weird? As I post this topic, the site is telling me that there are 666 users online right not.

 

[Silveras]

I think the bigger complaint is

"My complete arcane, the book supposed to be benefiting wizards, has 1/3rd of the spells in it devoted to wujens. And half of those spells are crap versions of other spells that wujens already get. And the wujen is a lame-ass minor-flavour adjustment of a wizard."

That's the complaint. 1/3rd of the spells being only available to a class that most people will never use is terrible. Compare it to, say, complete divine or complete warrior, where the introduced core classes had virtually zero spells in the list devoted to them.

The simple act of allowing existing arcane casters to use most of the wujen spells would have eliminated all the complaints.

Uhm... Complete Warrior is not a good example. It added, what, 5-6 spells, and the Hexblade (a new base class in the book) got access to all of them ?

Complete Divine also introduced the Shugenja (or re-introduced, if you had Oriental Adventures). Of course, the Shugenja is also a poor example, because .. uh... according to the spells in Complete Divine, the Shugenja does not get *any* of them. Especially since, if there is a discrepancy between the Spell List and the actual Spell entry, the spell entry "is more authoritative". Hmm.. I missed that, among the 80 or so e-mails I sent of errata items to Wizards. Time for #81, I guess.

 

[billd91]

Take, for example, Cloud Chariot.

Cloud Chariot is a 7th-level Wu Jen [Water] spell that, for 10 minutes (10 minutes, not 10 minutes/level), creates a chariot of clouds that people can ride on that can go as fast as 10 miles a minute. Alright, that's neat, it goes pretty fast, alright. But it can only go 100 miles maximum, and in almost every case a Teleport spell would be better. I mean, there are definitely situations where it could be incredibly useful (such as chasing a fast enemy), but is it really worth being a 7th-level spell? After all, that's the level of Limited Wish and Greater Teleport. 7th-level?

Also, let's look at Rain of Needles.

Rain of Needles is a 2nd-level Wu Jen [Metal] spell that, at maximum, can do 20 points of damage to a SINGLE target, no save. If you cause it to affect two targets, that's 10 points of damage each, four targets get 5 points each, and so on. And that's the MAXIMUM it can do, at 5th-level. It even requires a Ranged Attack roll against each target. Then, look at Hail of Stone- a 1st-level spell that has the same damage cap (5d4), except that it affects everyone in a 5-foot radius, doesn't require an attack roll, and doesn't need a save- so, at maximum, it could do 20 points of damage to FOUR people. True, it has a 5-gp material component as a balancing factor, but it's a FULL LEVEL below Rain of Needles. What gives?

Also, one error I noticed in the Wall of Bones spell is that, according to the spell, a creature can attempt to make a Strength check to break through the wall, with a DC of 15 + 2 per caster level, maximum +10- meaning that you get the maximum effect once you've reached 5th level. Well, it's a 4th-level spell, meaning you can't even cast it until you're 7th level. Is the cap supposed to be higher? Is it supposed to be +1 per level instead of +2 per level?

Oh, and Protection from Charm (Wu Jen 2) doesn't seem useful to me at all. It grants the recipient a resistance bonus of +1 per three caster levels (maximum +5) against any Will save against a Charm of Compulsion spell or effect. That, in and of itself, isn't very good (considering that it's a resistance bonus, which every PC is going to have by the time it's useful, as well as the fact that it only goes to one save). But the worst part? It's only a round/level! So, for a 2nd-level spell, you get a bonus to one save that probably won't stack with what you already have, and the only time you'll be able to cast it is when you know someone's about to cast a Charm or Compulsion spell on you. What the heck?
<snip>
Any help would be most appreciated.

Well, in the case of the comparison between Rain of needles and Hail of stone, in another thread, I brought up the fact that Rain of Needles is a selective-target spell. Friends in the area of effect need not fear the wu jen casting Rain of Needles. They would be affected if he cast Hail of Stone. That may be worth considering. Also, the original Hail of Stone in the OA book did 1d3/level to max 5d3 and not d4. But even with an upgrade of dice, keep in mind the selectivity of the spell's targeting.

As far as Cloud Chariot goes, it may be shorter in range than teleport (even greater teleport) but it isn't subject to dimensional anchor's interference, nor any other dimensional travel barriers. You also are able to see the intervening travel, which might be worth something from time to time.

Protection from Charm could be very handy when you have to fight a known charmer/compulsion user. But I agree that its duration, like too many 3.5 edition spells, is too short and oriented around being balanced in combat alone and not other sorts of situations. I consider that a general flaw in 3.5 D&D's spell design.

The original Wall of Bones in OA did not have a cap on the strength check that I'm aware of. It was +2 per level and that was that.

 

[iksander]

That's the clincher, however. A lot of them LOOK powerful. Upon further inspection, however, they're not as powerful as some lower-level Wu Jen spells, as I have stated above.

P.S.- wanna hear something weird? As I post this topic, the site is telling me that there are 666 users online right not.

Their is one wujen spell that made have a wtf moment...Decapitating scarf.

Its seventh level and is a ranged attack. Which isn't good but true strike can cancel that pain. The range is close, the spell has no SR and a fort partial. So everything is cool. Not spectacular... but if the spell hits, it instantly removes the head and the fort save will let you take a d4 per level instead of being instantly beheaded.

 

[UltimaGabe]

As far as Cloud Chariot goes, it may be shorter in range than teleport (even greater teleport) but it isn't subject to dimensional anchor's interference, nor any other dimensional travel barriers. You also are able to see the intervening travel, which might be worth something from time to time.

Yes, it may be worth something from time to time. But will the possibility of maybe having a spell be useful be worth a 7th-level spell slot? As I've stated, Clou Chariot CAN have its uses- but NONE of those uses are worth using a 7th-level slot.

Their is one wujen spell that made have a wtf moment...Decapitating scarf.

Its seventh level and is a ranged attack. Which isn't good but true strike can cancel that pain. The range is close, the spell has no SR and a fort partial. So everything is cool. Not spectacular... but if the spell hits, it instantly removes the head and the fort save will let you take a d4 per level instead of being instantly beheaded.

What's wrong with Decapitating scarf? It's a 7th-level spell- the same as Finger of Death- and the only differences between the two are that A. Decapitating Scarf ignores SR, B. Decapitating Scarf requires an attack roll (and considering the Wu Jen's BAB, that's not going to be easy without True Strike, which ends up costing two spell slots as well as two turns- as well as having to be within close range), and C. Decapitating Scarf does slightly more damage if you make the save. It's a powerful spell, but not too much more powerful than Finger of Death.