X2 *spoilers*

[Staffan]

They do relate to the Phoenix saga, but their role in the movie cannot quite be what it was in the comic. In the comic at the time, Jason Wyngard (Mastermind - Stryker's son in the movie) was the "Black King" of the Hellfire Club (the top members are named after chess pieces). Mastermind drove Phoenix insane to become Dark Phoenix.

Rook or Bishop, IIRC. Black King is Sebastian Shaw, who was debating with Hank McCoy in the movie.

 

[Silver Moon]

...Black King is Sebastian Shaw, who was debating with Hank McCoy in the movie.

Wasn't it fantastic how they tossed in all of those small bits for the fans in such a way that those not familiar with the X-Men didn't feel that they missed anything! (This morning my wife was talking on the phone to a friend of hers who saw the film last night and loved it. My wife mentions that I have most of the comic books, and the friend replies "It was a comic book?")

 

[reapersaurus]

I finally saw X2 with my wife this weekend, and we both loved it.

WizarDru: I give you props for being a knowledgable poster on Movie and xcomic book threads. Good job here.

posted by WizarDru:
But Claremont is to blame for the whole poorly conceived Madelyn Pryor stories, as well as the Brood stories and the Australian desert wackiness.

But what the heck was wrong with the (original) Brood story? I thought it was a highlight of the Xmen comic book post-issue-#144.
Any story that shows Wolverine's tolerance for pain that well, and also spiritual pain, as in Wolvie (and all the X-men) knowing he's going to live, whereas they are all doomed to die and become hosts to monsters....
Kurt's silent strength of spirituality in that scene where he prays the rosary in the observation deck is a highpoint in comicdom, to me.

Now, about the movie - I'm VERY pleased they kept Kurt/Nightcrawler's Catholic spirituality intact. Too bad they couldn't keep Storm/Ororo's Kenyan Sky-Goddess background intact, to have some nice theological fun.

Her discussion with Kurt about anger DID make me wonder if they're gonna introduce Storm's foray into punk violence, tho.

Maybe I just guessed right for once (I usually don't see hidden/foreshadowing things unless they're clearly shown on screen), but when Jean had problems in the mall and the electronic gear went haywire, I IMMEDIATELY turned to my wife and said, ecstatically and incredulously, "They're going to do Dark Pheonix!"
Really, the lights in the eyes was a dead give-away, I for once noticed.

As for Nightcrawler 'porting from the plane to catch Rogue falling at 700 miles an hour - yeah, it was a mistake - I assume they just didn't show him having to do multiple 'ports to accomplish the maneuver, as he of course would have had to. It makes for cleaner filmmaking that way for the uninitiated viewer, and is probablt best in the long run.
Us fanboys know how it probably would have happened - don't be stuck to what they happen to show onscreen - if you know about the characters and powers, just rationalize what they didn't show in your mind, and be happier than crap that they're including any of it.

I DID have a problem with Magneto being petty with Rogue on the plane - it just didn't seem in character to me. Lucky for him, Wolvie wasn't on the plane at the time, or there WOULD have been a fight (was Wolvie there?).

Magneto wouldn't go into a stone fortress with only his powers to protect him. The gear was metal, but it was all rock around... too easy to get stuck.
I don't think Deathstrike could slash thru the door, Magneto's powers are much reduced onscreen from the books (thank GOD!), Wolvie wouldn't have bothered scenting Jean then, Rogue would NOT have had a problem getting the damned seatbelt to work (unlimited technology in the universe, and we can't get a seatbelt to click?), I'm not sure about Nightcrawler having difficulty porting thru the door into Cerebro2-room, blah blah blah.

I'm VERY pleased they explained why Nightcrawler acted so out-of-character in the first White-House scene: unless he was mind-controlled, Kurt would never have done something so rash, polarizing, or acted like a monster, baring teeth - he hated that people saw him as a monster - he'd NEVER do something to contribute to that bigoted view.

Jean Grey going outside to rescue her friends was PURE storytelling manipulation, and I don't know why you'd expect anything different.
Was the comic book scene, where they invented a solar storm and had Jean as the only X-Man who could pilot the ship, and everyone else had to hide in the back pods that somehow were safe... was that any less ham-handed and unbelievable?

I don't think a scene like that is very possible to be written well... it's just too convoluted and difficult to manufacture - to me, the movie did it satisfactory enough for me.

I could chat more, but this is too much as it is...

 

[WizarDru]

WizarDru: I give you props for being a knowledgable poster on Movie and xcomic book threads. Good job here.
But what the heck was wrong with the (original) Brood story? I thought it was a highlight of the Xmen comic book post-issue-#144.

Much Obliged. Mayhaps I protest too much. It really is a good story arc, overall, but it has some of the first inklings of Claremont repeating himself (both conceptually and thematically) and lots of good moments. But the Brood themselves went from non-existant to dramatically overexposed around that time, between the X-men and other titles, like Rom. I have a problem with them because Claremont felt the need to drop in a new race that was a mixture of the Skrulls and the xenomorphs from Alien, after already having done an alien rip-off with Kitty some issues before (and don't get me wrong, I like that issue). My biggest complaint about the brood storyline is that it goes on TOO LONG.

Compared to the mess of the title that later writers would make, it's not really much to complain about. Claremont's greatest sin, in my eyes, was unresolved plot threads. His second greatest sin was repetition. But compared to the (IMHO, obviously) gross mishandling of the characters under writers like Scott Lobdell and Fabian Niceiza, I'd take Claremont back in a heartbeat.

The problem, of course, is that the X-men are victims of their own popularity. Marvel has expanded and complicated the franchise so much, that casual readers can't jump on...there's too much material. Even Ultimate X-men is starting to feel it's own collective weight, as more and more of the primary continuity is slogged on.

Now, about the movie - I'm VERY pleased they kept Kurt/Nightcrawler's Catholic spirituality intact. Too bad they couldn't keep Storm/Ororo's Kenyan Sky-Goddess background intact, to have some nice theological fun.

Agreed on both points. Kurt, as my favorite character, is both the spiritual center of the X-men and, again IMHO, it's most HUMAN. His compassion was always an important part of the team, and he always struck me as one of the few who truly grasped Xavier's dream.

I IMMEDIATELY turned to my wife and said, ecstatically and incredulously, "They're going to do Dark Pheonix!"
Really, the lights in the eyes was a dead give-away, I for once noticed.

When the movie was over, Scorch, who had gone with me, punched me in the arm and yelled, "Dark Phoenix! Did you see that?! I TOLD YOU! #*$&(# Dark Phoenix, man!" I took my lumps with pride.

Jean Grey going outside to rescue her friends was PURE storytelling manipulation, and I don't know why you'd expect anything different.
Was the comic book scene, where they invented a solar storm and had Jean as the only X-Man who could pilot the ship, and everyone else had to hide in the back pods that somehow were safe... was that any less ham-handed and unbelievable?

Heh. I can't add a single thing to that, and wouldn't try.

 

[reapersaurus]

But the Brood themselves went from non-existant to dramatically overexposed around that time, between the X-men and other titles, like Rom. I have a problem with them because Claremont felt the need to drop in a new race that was a mixture of the Skrulls and the xenomorphs from Alien, after already having done an alien rip-off with Kitty some issues before (and don't get me wrong, I like that issue).

Claremont's greatest sin, in my eyes, was unresolved plot threads.[/B]

Using ROM as a reason to dislike a creation of Claremont's is... well, saying that's specious reasoning is being generous. LOL

I guess Claremont likes the nasty alien thang - remember the N'Garai, or whatever they were that menaced Storm in that solo-ish in or around #104?

But you gotta admit the Askanti (the race of star-faring whales that served as the Brood's sentient ships) was a fiercely creative idea (unless that was done somewhere else first).

As for Claremont's greatest sin, I wholeheartedly agree.
That one aspect (frustrating, never finishing up story hooks that really didn't have much reason not to - even worse yet - NEVER going back and finishing them up, was a even greater crime) does more to lessen the overall appreciation of the man's works than anything else.
In other words, it makes it hard to like the guy.

But I'll add in a problem I have with Claremont.

The whole Mr. Sinister/Apocalypse thing killed my interest in X-men.
The idea of introducing vastly-overpowered villians, who can never be defeated, they simply must be held back for a time, then will resurface whenever the writer feels like they want him behind some dastardly plot that abuses our heroes mercilessly.... is a horribly contrived plot device, and ruins any story they are used in, regardless of the merits that otherwise exist in the story.

Even worse, though, is that Claremont NEVER even deliniated their powers, did he?
How much of a cop-out is that, to just have a plot device that could be behind every problem the mutants face, going back to pre-history, and then not even detail what he can/can't do, or even what his powers come from?

But where X-men jumped the shark for me was with the introduction of Nimrod in #191.
Great idea - let's make an unspecified-powered robot that can't be destroyed, and can do basically anything.
Oh - let's capitalize on the greatness of old by having it come from the unbelievably-fantastic Days of Future Past storyline world, but not give the reader ANY more info or meat about that storyline.

 

[Chun-tzu]

I DID have a problem with Magneto being petty with Rogue on the plane - it just didn't seem in character to me. Lucky for him, Wolvie wasn't on the plane at the time, or there WOULD have been a fight (was Wolvie there?).

Wolverine was on the plane. He was with Rogue, Iceman, and Pyro, remember? Jean and Storm picked them up in Boston, and they were later rescued by Magneto after the X-jet was shot down.

 

[reapersaurus]

Wolverine was on the plane. He was with Rogue, Iceman, and Pyro, remember? Jean and Storm picked them up in Boston, and they were later rescued by Magneto after the X-jet was shot down.

Than that's just silly that they had Magneto say something that unneeded, and nasty to Rogue with Wolvie present.
It detracts from the movie to include a line that makes multiple characters act against their nature, just because of sloppy writing.

 

[John Crichton]

Anyone else see this info about Kelly Hu and X3?

http://www.superherohype.com/cgi-bin/news/fullnews.cgi?newsid1052742509,50083,

 

[WizarDru]

Anyone else see this info about Kelly Hu and X3?

http://www.superherohype.com/cgi-bin/news/fullnews.cgi?newsid1052742509,50083,

What, have you been keeping this site a secret? It rocks! They have a picture of Ron Perlman as Hellboy! Sweet!

 

[Kahuna Burger]

That's okay, because, contrary to popular belief, very few Bostonians have the Boston accent.

Very few people you run into in boston have been bostonians for very long. Being a big college town and having lots of people move there for business does that. In my expereince, however, police are right up there with "T" conductors and people you run into at fenway as being the ones who DO have the accent.

There's also the heavy accent vs the light. I've slowly picked up a bit of the light, but stil don't pawk my cah at hawvad yahd. (Townie friend in college always pronounced my name "cah-lah" (carla) drove a lexington friend batty...)

Kahuna Burger