D&D 5E (2014) Xanathar's Healing Spirit is 10d6 healing to the whole party out of combat?

[FrogReaver]

@Ovinomancer

You do bring up higher tier play and maybe the issue with healing spirit lies more there than lower level play? I could see that. It's a much more flexible spell when your second level slots are considered low slots and it still restores a ton of hp to a high level party for a 2nd level slot.

You have obviously never dug a foxhole.

Tables from the next room would have been brought forward to provide cover and block flanking passages. Fires would have been set to do the same. Instead of holding the next door, the boss of the goblins (it was goblins) would have left a few goblins to harass the party as they fell back into the best defensive position that would have funneled the party onto a narrow bridge when the goblins could hold at the end and also set up flanking fire from a nearby platform only reachable from the area across the bridge.

They would have brought shaman forward and been able to use his magics to harass the party from the same platform, and also the grey ooze the shaman kept in a clay pot, which could have been hurled into the party once they were committed to the bridge assault.

In short, in ten minutes the goblins would have gone from disorganized to well organized, from exposed living conditions to defensive strongpoints fortified by makeshift barriers, from a running string of small encounters to a combined front, from dealing with only the melee might to also dealing with the magic might of the clan, and, in general, a triple deadly fight in poor tactical conditions for 3rd level characters instead of the string of hard, easy, easy, hard that was there if they pressed the assault.

Any more questions?

If all that happens in 10 minutes im dying to know what happens in an hour such as if they had short rested.

 

[5ekyu]

You have obviously never dug a foxhole.

Tables from the next room would have been brought forward to provide cover and block flanking passages. Fires would have been set to do the same. Instead of holding the next door, the boss of the goblins (it was goblins) would have left a few goblins to harass the party as they fell back into the best defensive position that would have funneled the party onto a narrow bridge when the goblins could hold at the end and also set up flanking fire from a nearby platform only reachable from the area across the bridge.

They would have brought shaman forward and been able to use his magics to harass the party from the same platform, and also the grey ooze the shaman kept in a clay pot, which could have been hurled into the party once they were committed to the bridge assault.

In short, in ten minutes the goblins would have gone from disorganized to well organized, from exposed living conditions to defensive strongpoints fortified by makeshift barriers, from a running string of small encounters to a combined front, from dealing with only the melee might to also dealing with the magic might of the clan, and, in general, a triple deadly fight in poor tactical conditions for 3rd level characters instead of the string of hard, easy, easy, hard that was there if they pressed the assault.

Any more questions?

Another note that may or may not be applicable to your specific example... interruption.

In your situation **would** the PCs have felt secure enough to commit to a 10m casting time (where even a minor interruption can disrupt the spell while that character is basically out of action during casting - basically a man down) as opposed to a 1 minute run-time where everyone including that character was up and able to fight (he only needs to maintain concentration.)

Seems a much lower risk of interruption (1v10m) and a much lower chance of failure if interrupted (Concentration vs casting and full group vs one man stuck casting.) Would/Could that have played a role as well in how that scenariop played out - as a significant factor?

 

[Ovinomancer]

If all that happens in 10 minutes im dying to know what happens in an hour such as if they had short rested.

Which part do you find to be unrealistic or unreasonable? That's the gist of your questions, right -- since the first attempt to get me to admit that there wouldn't be much of a difference between 1 minute and 10 minutes failed, you're now trying to cast the answer as too much and leaving nothing if they instead took an hour and used hitdice to heal all the way up?

Well, unfortunately, the party chose to strike after a hunting party of 2 worgs and 8 goblins had left, hoping that the few numbers inside would mean they could overrun the goblins and then catch the hunting party on the way back. If they had retreated to short rest, the goblin boss would have sent a goblin sneaking out the other entrance to blow the clan horn (which the party knew they had a horn from previous brushes with the goblins) to recall the hunting party. Now, the PC party would be facing many more reinforcements that, depending on where they chose to hole up and rest, might just hem them into the lair. Also, I'm a big fan of interfering with rests right next to prepared bad guys. A few goblins that sneak up, toss the clay pot full of grey ooze into the middle of the resting party, and then fire a hail of arrows before retreating through an ambush point would have been exactly what would have happened. Then, the party wouldn't have gotten that short rest (I can repeat that often, or just set a fire that smokes out the resting location) AND there would be powerful reinforcements joining the fun from the rear.

So, yeah, turns out that a short rest is even worse of an idea. Now, tell which part of any of that is unreasonable or against the rules of the game or even against the spirit of the game.

 

[FrogReaver]

[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]

You do bring up higher tier play and maybe the issue with healing spirit lies more there than lower level play? I could see that. It's a much more flexible spell when your second level slots are considered low slots and it still restores a ton of hp to a high level party for a 2nd level slot.

Which part do you find to be unrealistic or unreasonable? That's the gist of your questions, right -- since the first attempt to get me to admit that there wouldn't be much of a difference between 1 minute and 10 minutes failed, you're now trying to cast the answer as too much and leaving nothing if they instead took an hour and used hitdice to heal all the way up?

Well, unfortunately, the party chose to strike after a hunting party of 2 worgs and 8 goblins had left, hoping that the few numbers inside would mean they could overrun the goblins and then catch the hunting party on the way back. If they had retreated to short rest, the goblin boss would have sent a goblin sneaking out the other entrance to blow the clan horn (which the party knew they had a horn from previous brushes with the goblins) to recall the hunting party. Now, the PC party would be facing many more reinforcements that, depending on where they chose to hole up and rest, might just hem them into the lair. Also, I'm a big fan of interfering with rests right next to prepared bad guys. A few goblins that sneak up, toss the clay pot full of grey ooze into the middle of the resting party, and then fire a hail of arrows before retreating through an ambush point would have been exactly what would have happened. Then, the party wouldn't have gotten that short rest (I can repeat that often, or just set a fire that smokes out the resting location) AND there would be powerful reinforcements joining the fun from the rear.

So, yeah, turns out that a short rest is even worse of an idea. Now, tell which part of any of that is unreasonable or against the rules of the game or even against the spirit of the game.

None. It was all realistic and reasonable enough. Only thing I found concerning was treating the goblins as totally disorganized and tactically inept unless they had 20 minutes to prepare. But even then it's still reasonable to have that be the case. It's just a bit harder to visualize 10 minutes causing that level of disorganization into total organization. IMO

What I was more concerned with was that the goblins in 10 minutes got so well prepared that not much would change even given another hour. You have examples of how it could escalate even further. Thank you.

 

[Ovinomancer]

None. It was all realistic and reasonable enough. Only thing I found concerning was treating the goblins as totally disorganized and tactically inept unless they had 20 minutes to prepare. But even then it's still reasonable to have that be the case. It's just a bit harder to visualize 10 minutes causing that level of disorganization into total organization. IMO.

A surprise attack on your home camp generally causes panic and disarray. An attack in the middle the day, while most goblins are sleeping, and that neutralizes the guard means that for the first few minutes the goblins are very much disorganized.

And, really, it's not total organization so much as it's knowing where the defensive chokepoints in your own home are and using them. Every strategy the goblins would have used in the 'prepared' position was one they were using in the spread out version with the exception of using the furnishings as makeshift barriers to block a flanking passage. The 1st encounter after the rest was the boss' room (boss, 4 goblins), followed by a few goblins in the tunnels (4 goblins), followed by the goblins watching the bridge (2), followed by the shaman's quarters (2 goblins, the shaman, and his 'pet' ooze). Taken in that order, the goblins are fairly easy marks. But if you let the boss backed up by 6 goblins to hold the bridge while 4 goblins and the shaman fire from the bridge overwatch, yeah, that's a lot harder, and it doesn't take a crack team of tacticians to realize that and fall back when given 10 minutes to think about it.

10 minutes is both and age and a blink in terms of combat. Give a group with a plan and a known, nearby defensive position and they'll set up a hard little defense. Give that same group 1 minute to wake up, arm, get aware of what the threat is, and start preparing, and you'll catch them with their metaphorical pants around metaphorical ankles.

What I was more concerned with was that the goblins in 10 minutes got so well prepared that not much would change even given another hour. You have examples of how it could escalate even further. Thank you.

Again, your definition of 'so well prepared' was moving 9 goblins into a known defensive strongpoint and waking up the shaman. And moving some furniture. It's not like they built the Maginot line.

 

[Zmajdusa]

Flamable furniture, by that logic the party could have just started lighting the place on fire and waited outside til the goblins started pouring out. They could have some caltrops at the exits and watch the fun.

 

[Xeviat]

What level is the spell that lets you take a 10 minute short rest?

 

[5ekyu]

What level is the spell that lets you take a 10 minute short rest?

3rd up to 3 Targets, unconscious needing action to wake each or damage to wake. If they make 10m then SRest each.

That would let them recover their SR abilities and burn HD but comes with the risk such as it is of 10m lost and unconscious while so.



Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app

 

[Ovinomancer]

Flamable furniture, by that logic the party could have just started lighting the place on fire and waited outside til the goblins started pouring out. They could have some caltrops at the exits and watch the fun.

Sure, they could have fought to the rooms with sufficient furniture, smashed some, and taken a few minutes seeing it ablaze. I reward such thinking. Many of the goblins would have escaped out the other entrance, though, and there's still the hunting party out there. The smoke might draw the attention of other curious things as well. But, no, I have no problems with using fire tactically. That might have been am excellent plan, depending on how they set it up and the outcome of a few rolls.

Why, would you not allow it?

 

[FrogReaver]

A surprise attack on your home camp generally causes panic and disarray. An attack in the middle the day, while most goblins are sleeping, and that neutralizes the guard means that for the first few minutes the goblins are very much disorganized.

And, really, it's not total organization so much as it's knowing where the defensive chokepoints in your own home are and using them. Every strategy the goblins would have used in the 'prepared' position was one they were using in the spread out version with the exception of using the furnishings as makeshift barriers to block a flanking passage. The 1st encounter after the rest was the boss' room (boss, 4 goblins), followed by a few goblins in the tunnels (4 goblins), followed by the goblins watching the bridge (2), followed by the shaman's quarters (2 goblins, the shaman, and his 'pet' ooze). Taken in that order, the goblins are fairly easy marks. But if you let the boss backed up by 6 goblins to hold the bridge while 4 goblins and the shaman fire from the bridge overwatch, yeah, that's a lot harder, and it doesn't take a crack team of tacticians to realize that and fall back when given 10 minutes to think about it.

10 minutes is both and age and a blink in terms of combat. Give a group with a plan and a known, nearby defensive position and they'll set up a hard little defense. Give that same group 1 minute to wake up, arm, get aware of what the threat is, and start preparing, and you'll catch them with their metaphorical pants around metaphorical ankles.


Again, your definition of 'so well prepared' was moving 9 goblins into a known defensive strongpoint and waking up the shaman. And moving some furniture. It's not like they built the Maginot line.

The first thing the goblins do when they have a potential intruder is to turn over all their furniture to use as fortifications and fall back to a bridge choke point. I guess they doing all that just in case you know? No verified imminent threat is known to be still present. In fact they are soo in the dark about what's going on they send a small band outside to search for the intruders that may have fled. And to top it all off they do all this within 10 minutes after being awoken just in case the intruder is still present. I guess these are just some really cautious goblins. Now there's nothing wrong with that mind you. It's still realistic and plausible.