XGE "Training" Downtime Activity - does it devalue tool proficiencies?

[S'mon]

I use 6 months for self training and XGE 10 weeks for cram training with a skilled instructor.

 

[77IM]

Whether or not a player will spend 250 days learning a proficiency depends on how many downtime days there are in the campaign, and what other options are available. Like, if your party literally goes YEARS between adventures, then that's pretty reasonable -- but in such a campaign, PCs might rather spend their time building a castle or running a business or something.

I go with the 10-week rule because it seems better balanced against other uses of downtime.

As for verisimilitude: I am guessing that the average person, if they spent 10 full weeks in dedicated study with an instructor (8 hours a day, 40 hours a week), could learn enough about those tools to be proficient. At low levels, proficiency is just a 10% better chance to succeed. And a highly intelligent person could get done much faster; remember that Int +5 is super-genius-level intellect, and it still takes them 5 weeks of constant training and practice to learn how to play a shawm or carve a statue or read a sextant or find their way around a poisoner's kit or whatever. D&D doesn't really have finer gradations of proficiency available. If it makes you feel better, give NPCs a lot of Expertise (double proficiency) in their main professions. Like, Bob the Brewer, a commoner who's been brewing for years, might have a whopping +4 bonus to brewer's tools, instead of the expected +2. In that context, yeah, your PC can get the +2 by taking a 10-week immersive course, and they can keep it by practicing that proficiency on the side without mentioning it during game-play.

 

[S'mon]

Like, Bob the Brewer, a commoner who's been brewing for years, might have a whopping +4 bonus to brewer's tools, instead of the expected +2.

If Bob is known as a brewer I'd probably give Bob +2 WIS too for a +6 total.

 

[MNblockhead]

My games have very little downtime.
250 days in game might be 2+ years of playing.

Sure, that has been my experiences in other campaigns, but this campaign is different.

In my current campaign, there is significant down time. I'm running the mega dungeon Rappan Athuk with some variant and homebrew rules, including training to level up (which requires a mentor/faction/temple or other venue for training), XP earned by GP extracted which means travelling to cities to sell items (and cities in the Lost Lands setting have limits on the total values of goods that can be sold there in a month).

Distances of major population areas in the Lost Lands are BIG. Until teleportation or other fast travel becomes available to them, there is significant downtime and downtime is a kind of side game played by e-mail between our monthly 8-hour adventure sessions.

So, at low levels, the party delves into Rappan Athuk, then they travel to (for now) Bard's Gate for training to level up and various downtime activities.

Currently we are resolving 43 weeks of travel and downtime. Not all downtime activities can be performed while travelling, but I do allow many downtime activities during travel.

Eventually, however, travel is not going to eat up so much time and the amount of downtime will mostly be a decision by the party members on how much time they want to take on other activities before they come together again to further explore the "Dungeon of Graves".

 

[MNblockhead]

I think the fact you don’t see language proficiencies as being as mechanically impactful may be due to relatively fewer social interactions with creatures who don’t speak Common.

No. The party will encounter many creatures who do not speak common. And many of the languages are exotic and rare. Also, in my current campaign, uneducated humans and those in more remote areas don't speak common. So all of the many Lost Lands regional languages could have importance.

What I meant by this is that magic will pretty easily overcome language challenges. You can have comprehend languages at first level. Tongues is available when characters reach 5th level. Both a helm of Comprehend Languages and a Helm of Telepathy are merely uncommon magic items.

Tool proficiencies are similarly devalued as magic users in the party level up.

 

[Inchoroi]

I've been using a modified rule from the PHB: characters can train in a new skill or tool proficiency, or language, by purchasing the services of a trainer for 250 gp and spending 250 days divided by the relevant Ability modifier used with it. In most cases, the tool proficiency and languages uses Intelligence. On Languages, specifically, I also allow the Linguist feat to halve the time it takes to learn a language, after dividing it by your character's Intelligence modifier; this is because languages are important in my game (my players recently discovered a Rosetta-stone like chamber with an entirely extinct language from approximately 11,000 years ago, and one of the characters is working on translating it and learning how to read/write the language and then to sell books on the language). Its worked pretty well; the Wizard trained in leatherworkers to make bags of holding and two of the characters have trained in thieves' tools.

No. The party will encounter many creatures who do not speak common. And many of the languages are exotic and rare. Also, in my current campaign, uneducated humans and those in more remote areas don't speak common. So all of the many Lost Lands regional languages could have importance.

What I meant by this is that magic will pretty easily overcome language challenges. You can have comprehend languages at first level. Tongues is available when characters reach 5th level. Both a helm of Comprehend Languages and a Helm of Telepathy are merely uncommon magic items.

Tool proficiencies are similarly devalued as magic users in the party level up.

gasp

Another person who uses Lost Lands!? I homebrewed 60+ languages for that setting...

 

[jayoungr]

What I meant by this is that magic will pretty easily overcome language challenges. You can have comprehend languages at first level. Tongues is available when characters reach 5th level.

Okay, but isn't that true of most adventuring-relevant tool challenges too? For example, knock will overcome a locked door, and mending can repair things as well as artisan's tools could.

 

[jgsugden]

Here is a house I wrote that allows for people to train to learn new tools and languages. It is a bit cumbersome, but as a no-combat element that has a large impact, the bulk gives it some substance.

* You may study to learn a new 'extra' weapon proficiency, tool proficiency, skill or language if you 'know' fewer extra (weapon + tool proficiencies + skills + languages) than your Intelligence modifier. You are considered to 'know' an extra weapon proficiency, tool, skill or language if you are proficient, or have any proficiency points (see below) in it. An 'extra' (weapon + tool proficiencies + skills + languages) is one gained through this process rather than from a background, class, race, or magical item.

* If your intelligence modifier is decreased, you lose access to these extra (weapon + tool proficiencies + skills + languages) until it returns to the level at which you learned these abilities (Headband of Intellect caveat).

* At the end of each 40 hours spent in focused study, you may roll an intelligence ability roll (or other ability score roll as specified by the DM as appropriate) with a DC of 15 + your current proficiency points in the proficiency, skill or language (see below), minus your training points in the proficiency, skill or language. If you succeed, you gain a proficiency point in the weapon, tool, skill or language and lose all training points in it. If not, gain a training point in that option (which will serve only to subsequent checks easier).

* Focused study requires training and resources. An expert trainer can give you advantage on your roll. Inadequate resources will give you disadvantage or in the case of a language, prevent you from making a roll at all.

* If your proficiency points equals your proficiency bonus for a weapon, skill or tool, you are fully proficient in the weapon, skill or tool and add it as a proficiency to your sheet. For all purposes you treat i as a proficiency going forward.

* For languages, however, you always need 6 proficiency points to master the laguage. 1 point allows you to read simple messages in the language. 2 allows you to read typical messages in the language. 3 allows you to decipher technical writings in the language. Writing simple, typical and technical messages requires 2, 3, or 4 points. Similarly, understanding spoken requires 3, 4, or 5; and speaking requires 4, 5 or 6.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Here is a house I wrote that allows for people to train to learn new tools and languages. It is a bit cumbersome, but as a no-combat element that has a large impact, the bulk gives it some substance.

* You may study to learn a new 'extra' weapon proficiency, tool proficiency, skill or language if you 'know' fewer extra (weapon + tool proficiencies + skills + languages) than your Intelligence modifier. You are considered to 'know' an extra weapon proficiency, tool, skill or language if you are proficient, or have any proficiency points (see below) in it. An 'extra' (weapon + tool proficiencies + skills + languages) is one gained through this process rather than from a background, class, race, or magical item.

* If your intelligence modifier is decreased, you lose access to these extra (weapon + tool proficiencies + skills + languages) until it returns to the level at which you learned these abilities (Headband of Intellect caveat).

* At the end of each 40 hours spent in focused study, you may roll an intelligence ability roll (or other ability score roll as specified by the DM as appropriate) with a DC of 15 + your current proficiency points in the proficiency, skill or language (see below), minus your training points in the proficiency, skill or language. If you succeed, you gain a proficiency point in the weapon, tool, skill or language and lose all training points in it. If not, gain a training point in that option (which will serve only to subsequent checks easier).

* Focused study requires training and resources. An expert trainer can give you advantage on your roll. Inadequate resources will give you disadvantage or in the case of a language, prevent you from making a roll at all.

* If your proficiency points equals your proficiency bonus for a weapon, skill or tool, you are fully proficient in the weapon, skill or tool and add it as a proficiency to your sheet. For all purposes you treat i as a proficiency going forward.

* For languages, however, you always need 6 proficiency points to master the laguage. 1 point allows you to read simple messages in the language. 2 allows you to read typical messages in the language. 3 allows you to decipher technical writings in the language. Writing simple, typical and technical messages requires 2, 3, or 4 points. Similarly, understanding spoken requires 3, 4, or 5; and speaking requires 4, 5 or 6.

I would have some issues with that house rule as a player, because the game values some of those features differently than others. In particular, skills are worth more than any of those other things. Weapon proficiencies are next, and then tools and languages, which you can pickup without any build resources are last.

Now, if you meant that the extras were limited separately for each category, then that is a pretty interesting idea.

 

[MNblockhead]

Okay, but isn't that true of most adventuring-relevant tool challenges too? For example, knock will overcome a locked door, and mending can repair things as well as artisan's tools could.

Depends. Tool proficiencies are not just using the tool, it is also knowledge of the art and materials related to the tools.

Let's look at the mending example. Why bother with cobbler's tools if you have a wizard with the mending cantrip? You can just mend any damage to the shoe?

Well, you can use cobblers tools to maintain footwear to allow the party to travel further without exhaustion. Your knowledge of the tools can help you with identifying magical footwear, help with tracking and investigations. You can craft or find hidden compartments in footwear.

If you lose your shoes or they are destroyed beyond mending, you can make new ones.

Also, mending can fix a "single break or tear." Does it restore worn out soles? I would probably rule that if a hole is worn in the shoe, it may close it, but only to the condition it was in right before the hole appeared, meaning it it still very worn and will like develop another hole soon.

And I could come up with similar for all tool sets.

But as I type this, I've just talked myself into out of believing that tongues and similar communication spells devalue language. I think learning a language has value beyond just communication. First, you would likely learn a lot about the culture of those who speak the language. First, language itself can help you understand a culture, but if you are learning from a native speaker, you will have had some intense exposure to someone from that culture. Second, when you cast tongue, people know a spell has been cast. The reception is different than having someone actually understand and speak your language. You will be more likely to be accepted. People will appreciate that you've taken the time to learn their language. I would likely give bonuses to persuasion checks.