XP as dated?

[haakon1]

XP, Training, and Leveling Up

I give xp for encounters overcome, not necessarily through combat, as well as bonus xp for good roleplaying.

However, I still like to use xp.

Ditto. Using 3.5 xp rules as my basis, I give:
-- Full RAW XP for fully defeating monsters (killing them or capturing them)

-- Reduced-from-RAW XP for partially defeating monsters (driving them away in a semi-permanent way) or making the monsters a much reduced threat (parlaying with them and making a deal to reduce the harm to the folks the PC's are working for). I talked to Gygax here about this, and he recommended it. It works quite well for my campaigns, in getting the PC's to have more complex interactions with the "monsters".

-- Full RAW XP for dealing with the challenge of a trap, either by defusing it or setting it off. (You learn either way.)

-- Roleplaying XP, typically 150 xp, sometimes higher, for using a Skill or Feat or roleplaying to advance the story in a significant way, while in character. For email game, which is Role Playing heavy, this can be important.

-- For my live game, bonus for actually attending. Typically 100 xp. All the characters get played each time (no dropping in and out of the story due to player attendance/non-attendance), but your character gets automatic XP for you showing up.

I do have widely different levels within my parties (2-4th in the live party, 4-8th in the email party), and the XP rules in 3.5e deal with that quite well, ramping up the junior people faster, to what feels like the "right" degree. For example, in the live party, 3 of them started together and are now 4th level. Another guy started at 1st when they were were 2nd, and is now 4th, tied with the "founders". The most recent started at 1st when they were 3rd, and will level up to 3rd next time we play, IIRC.

Also, I don't total up XP for each session. I total up whenever an adventure is completed and the PC's are on downtime.

I don't allow people to "pong" into the new level mid-adventure (or mid-combat) just because they've achieved the requisite XP, so I don't need to tally XP continuously.

They need to take time off to train and level up, usually a week or two of game time, which allows the characters to do other downtime stuff (make potions,shop, role-play, if they want) or can just be hand waved if everyone is just intent on leveling up.

I have training costs, but not for going to 5th level or higher (like Conan the Barbarian after he studied in the East, they no longer need formal training but learn on the job from that point on), and often they have a sponsor (government or church) who picks up the cost anyhow -- so typically, training for 2nd level is the only one the PC's are out-of-pocket for.

I have had people who want to keep playing but don't want to level up. I'm not sure if it's primarily an issue of wanting to stay in the sweetspot, not wanting to decide what to do next, or just don't want to deal with the busywork of it. It's not a huge deal if people drag their feet, as our parties are usually "level heterogenous" already.

Other players, of course, are eager beavers who live to level up. Most are happy to do it, but also seem happy to wait for the end of the adventure. <shrug>

Perhaps it helps that my groups are "homemade". All of my players were folks who were not playing D&D when I came along and recruited them (many used to play AD&D a decade or more before I reminded them how fun it is), so I don't deal with a lot of rules lawyering or complaining about how I run the game compared to others -- though two of them now DM their own 3.5e campaigns too, and do offer constructive criticism from time to time.

 

[garrowolf]

Nowadays I award PCs a new level every 5 games. We play every other week so this levels them up 5 levels a year, exactly what I want for a 30 lvl, 6 year campaign.

Exactly!
We don't need it in order to figure out when characters should level.
I give out Action Points to give players a reward for good gaming. Otherwise everything is in game.
(Actually I have three different kinds of Action points - Hero Points for Heroics, Social Points for social interactions and contacts, and Tech Points for modifying gear and speaking in technobabble that still makes sense. )

 

[Ahnehnois]

Is XP a good idea?

No.

Then again, there has to be some way to say "okay, you've done enough" and let the heroes just level up.

Why?

And some way to reward heroes for fighting tougher monsters, fighting tough quests, or interacting successfully with key NPCs.

Why?

What do you think?

I think XP is pretty much anyithetical to the "roleplaying" and not all that helpful to the "game". It encourages people to behave in a way that earns XP, typically by fighting and winning battles whenever possible. XP is not a good reason to fight. A good reason would be that the enemies are in the way of a crucial objective, or they have something you want, or there's a contract out on them and you're collecting, or because they attacked you first.

Rewarding players for combat success should happen naturally in the game world. Treasure is one obvious reward, but accomplishing in-game goals can also be seen as a reward. Character advancement is not a reward. It is something that happens naturally as your character learns to adventure. Learning is not modeled very well by the XP system; if anything, training should be at least as important as actual achievement, especially early on.

Getting rid of XP is addition by subtaction, believe me. It may seem like a critical part of the game, but if you drop it I doubt you'll miss it. I don't.

 

[Kzach]

Why?

Because, IME at least, the vast majority of players want XP in some form or another.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Because, IME at least, the vast majority of players want XP in some form or another.

Well, IME and IYE are different.

But even then, the question of why remains. Why would players insist on any kind of XP system? They almost invariably complain about whatever system is used. What's so great about it that they would miss XP if it were gone?

 

[LostSoul]

But even then, the question of why remains. Why would players insist on any kind of XP system? They almost invariably complain about whatever system is used. What's so great about it that they would miss XP if it were gone?

XP determine when a character changes. Players can (generally) control the rate at which they gain XP and the things they do for XP. Thus they can control how and why their characters change.

Taking XP out and putting character change in the hands of the DM seems strange to me, like you're asking for your grades. "Did I roleplay well enough to get another skill rank in Sense Motive?"

Anyway, the why is: because XP increase player agency.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Anyway, the why is: because XP increase player agency.

I would think that this would be one of the benefits of dropping XP. The DM typically determines what XP rules are used, what challenges to throw at players, how to adjudicate those challenges, when to add in "bonus" XP, and when to allow characters to actually level up. Not a lot of player influence in that.

In addition if you take that away and players simply level at some arbitrary rate, they can do whatever they want, worrying about only the in-game consequences, and not some metagame sense of "keeping score". Very liberating.

 

[Janx]

I would think that this would be one of the benefits of dropping XP. The DM typically determines what XP rules are used, what challenges to throw at players, how to adjudicate those challenges, when to add in "bonus" XP, and when to allow characters to actually level up. Not a lot of player influence in that.

In addition if you take that away and players simply level at some arbitrary rate, they can do whatever they want, worrying about only the in-game consequences, and not some metagame sense of "keeping score". Very liberating.

maybe for you, but everybody I've played with wants more XP. XP at least gives the illusion that there's a system involved in determining when I level up.

No XP gives the sense that the GM is just making stuff up and my actions didn't matter in improving my character.

It also acts as a metric on how fast advancement is going to be. Otherwise, when the GM is just saying "you level up" it is less obvious what's going on. Furthermore, it lets the GM throttle back PCs to his preferred sweet spot, rather than what most players want which is more power.

It's different tastes to be sure. But the reasons you cite as benefits are negatives to me and the people I play with.

 

[Ahnehnois]

...XP at least gives the illusion that there's a system involved in determining when I level up...

... the GM is just making stuff up and my actions didn't matter in improving my character.

Well, that kind of sums it up. XP isn't so much a system as the illusion of one, and the GM is just making stuff up, regardless of what the rules are. Of course, a good one creates a sense of fairness and cedes enough decision-making power to let the players' decisions matter, but that's not really the rules' job. Which brings us to...

It's different tastes to be sure.

Fair enough.

 

[LostSoul]

I would think that this would be one of the benefits of dropping XP. The DM typically determines what XP rules are used, what challenges to throw at players, how to adjudicate those challenges, when to add in "bonus" XP, and when to allow characters to actually level up. Not a lot of player influence in that.

When the DM controls the situation, resolution of said situation, and the reward cycle, I think player agency has already been thrown out the window. For typical uses of agency.

In addition if you take that away and players simply level at some arbitrary rate, they can do whatever they want, worrying about only the in-game consequences, and not some metagame sense of "keeping score". Very liberating.

Probably.

Reward cycles in games are powerful things and I don't think you can have a satisfying experience without them. This makes me think that traditional XP (for GP or HD/CR) doesn't work as a reward cycle for those who drop XP - the ways that a character changes from XP isn't of much importance. Gaining a level doesn't speak to why you're playing the game as much as it does for a guy like me.