XP for Animal Companions?

[DWARF]

And thanks, DWARF, for suggesting that I award full XP for a first-level party who kills a 20th-level wizard who has no magic. However, I think that's a terrible idea; if you extrapolate it from what I suggested, you're doing something pretty wrong.

EXACTLY!!! Now ask yourself, if you wouldn't award full Xp for that level 20 wizard..... then why should you award the maximum Xp for the druid? If full Xp is a druid WITH an animal companion, then a druid WITHOUT one should not give out the same Xp.

IF Druid + Wolf = 300 Xp,
then why do you think Druid (with no wolf) = 300 Xp?

The problem isn't that they should award Xp for animal companions, the problem is that you shouldn't award full Xp for a druid without animal companions.

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What if this were a summoning wizard? Would you give Xp for all the monsters he summons? If so, what about an evoker? Instead of having summoned creatures do his damage, he uses his spells directly. So if you do count summoned / animal compaions as Xp, explain this silly math to me...

Level 1 Evoker = CR 1 = 300 Xp
Total = 300 Xp
-----------------------------------------------
Level 1 Summoner = CR 1 = 300 Xp
Level 1 Summon = CR 1/4 = 75 Xp
Total = 375 Xp

So how does a specialist mage of one type somehow become more powerful than the other? Answer, he doesn't. IF you want to award Xp for summons and animal companions, then you're going to have to give out Xp for each damaging spell the evoker casts. How about you break down Xp by every facet. Took 4 damage? Get 15 Xp. Had Charm Person cast on you? get 30 Xp.

-OR-

They could come up with a system to somewhat arbitrarily decide how difficult a smart and fully effective character at a certain level is and have the DM make the decision to lower that amount if that particular character wasn't optimum, like, if a druid hadn't gotten an animal companion?

WotC went with the simpler route and made the CR system. With a smart enough DM, you should be able to work it that druids without animal companions, wizards without spellbooks, fighters without weapons and armor or sleeping monsters don't give you the full Xp that they normally would, since they aren't in the optimal conditions that the CR system assumes.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Dwarf makes a great point - full XP should NOT be awarded for a druid without their animal companions in accompaniment.

Now - something I just noted in the initial post.

Did I read somewhere that PCs do not get additional XP for defeating the animal companions/familiars/mounts/etc of NPC baddies? So, an 8th level druid with an 8HD fiendish brown bear only counts as an CR 8 encounter?
This doesn't seem right to me...

It doesn't seem right to me either - because the fiendish template makes the brown bear a magical beast, not an animal, and thus not subject to the animal friendship spell in the first place.

 

[Pielorinho]

DWARF, you're not looking at what I'm saying. Reread my algebra.

I'm not arguing that a druid plus a wolf ought to be worth more than a druid alone.

I'm arguing that a wolf plus a druid ought to be worth more than a wolf alone.

Address this point, and we can go forward.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Another way to look at it:

You're a party of fifth-level characters, facing two paths through the woods.

Down one path lives a 6th-level druid and her two brown bear companions.

Down the other path lives three angry brown bears.

Which path do you think is tougher to deal with?

The way the XP charts are written, you'll get the same experience for either choice: 2,250.

Down one, you face two badass fighters, and a spellcaster who can summon more nasties, who can call lightning down from the clouds to do 6d10 damage to a 10' radius, who can cause the trees to grab you, who can charm your fighter away from you, who can make the armor on three of you start heating to terrible temperatures, who can cause rats to swarm over your wizard and prevent spellcasting, who can cover the ground with magical spikes.

Down the other, you face three badass fighters.
Daniel

 

[Umbran]

The trick, Pielorinho is probably in noticing that there's a conflict between the PHB and the DMG on animal companions...

The PHB claims a druid can have up to twice their level in hit dice of companions, and gives the example of a 1st level druid with a wolf companion.

The DMG claims (on pg 46) that this is under optimal conditions - for a druid that stays in a particular area, not for your usual PC adventuring druid. By the DMG, your usual adventuring druid cannot maintain the CR1 wolf as a companion, but instead can only keep a 1 HD creature, like a badger - which are typically CR 1/2.

So, there are two types of druids - One has twice the HD in companions. Obviously, these two aren't the same challenge. Should you not give more XP for the tougher one?

I submit that the case where you say an NPC's CR = level only holds for adventuring druids. For "landed" druids, who can maintin the full HD of creatures, you need to consider them as either higher CR or otherwise modify the XP award, as detailed in the DMG (around pg 167).

 

[Magus_Jerel]

I personally count the critters - if any - separate from the druid. The same logic goes towards followers from the leadership feat - the "other" nightmare.

The fact that the PC gets to control these guys about as much as they do their own charater - is worth the feat slot - and in the case of the druid - it is just a function of a particular spell they posess.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

DWARF, you're not looking at what I'm saying. Reread my algebra.

I'm not arguing that a druid plus a wolf ought to be worth more than a druid alone.

I'm arguing that a wolf plus a druid ought to be worth more than a wolf alone.

Address this point, and we can go forward.

Daniel

Daniel, you're right, and yet you're not. Your algebra is slightly off because you're treating the druid and the wolf as two separate quantities, when in fact the rules treat them as one. Let me give you a different set of equasions.

[human spellcaster + animal companion] = druid PC = 300xp
[medium-sized animal] = wolf = 300xp

so

[color=sky blue]druid PC + wolf = 600xp[/color] because:
[human spellcaster + animal companion] + wolf = 600xp

but

[human spellcaster - animal companion] + wolf = 300xp because:
[human spellcaster - animal companion] + wolf = [human spellcaster + animal companion] = druid PC = 300xp


Did that make sense?

 

[Pielorinho]

Daniel, you're right, and yet you're not. Your algebra is slightly off because you're treating the druid and the wolf as two separate quantities, when in fact the rules treat them as one. Let me give you a different set of equasions.

No, my algebra DOESN'T do that, I don't think.

The wolf, sans druid, is certainly a separate quantity.

The wolf and druid combo may be a single quantity, if you want.

But it's absurd to suggest that the wolf-and-druid combo is no tougher than the lone wolf.

That's my point.

As to someone's point that an adventuring druid is the standard for the CR, and that adventuring druids can't have double their level in HD -- that's true normally, and it's an interesting point. I'm pretty sure, however, that the rules somewhere suggest that a first level adventuring druid is an exception to this policy.

Finally, WOTC itself doesn't entriely buy the explanation about summoned/companion/cohorts falling under the CR of the primary PC. In a WOTC-published adventure, there's an encounter the PCs have solely with the summoned creatures of a villain; the adventure instructs the DM to award full XP for killing the summoned critters.

Daniel

 

[Chacal]

I can see that an animal companion is a class feature and that his absence decreases
a Druid CR. But, given the choice, I surely prefer fighting a single wolf, than fighting a wolf AND a druid.
This is where the system breaks.

The exemple is scarier with cohorts and followers. It's not a class feature, and I don't believe that a NPC not taking this feat is suboptimal and that its CR should be decreased (if so, we should decrease nearly all of the NPC's CR).

How can a Bard 7 and a wizard 7 be considered a CR 7 or 2 CR 7 depending on which feats they selected ?



Chacal

 

[jaults]

It doesn't seem right to me either - because the fiendish template makes the brown bear a magical beast, not an animal, and thus not subject to the animal friendship spell in the first place. [/B]

    Glad to have fostered such an interesting discussion -- I have two things to add.
    First off, in reply to Magus_Jerel, the druid in question was actually a Druid/Fiendbinder (from Dragon #292, I believe), so applying the fiendish template on his animal companions is a class feature.
    Secondly, I decided to award the PCs XP for the full value of the Druid, plus 50% of the value of the animal companions. Not because of any specific algebraic formulae, but just cause it seemed right... Which, as DM, is my prerogative... *grin*

Thanks,
    Jason