D&D 5E XP for Gold in 5E?

[CapnZapp]

Your system does this anyway, but in a forced, convoluted way. Why not just be straightforward about it?

I'm simply taking the old school_ idea of xp for gold, and adding in the decision point to slow down advancement in exchange for more stuff (actually this is also taken from the old school_ of thought)

I would have thought that was straightforward enough, as I image most old school_ rules would be...?

 

[CapnZapp]

SO ... back to your specific situation. You want to allow magic item commerce, but limit it and create more of an opportunity cost. You also want to include some kind of nod to the PCs' social life outside the dungeon.

Actually, I want to create a worthwhile spending target, where players feel they're actually getting something worthwhile for their money. Getting xp for your gold seems like something most players would find acceptable.

I, as a player, would not enjoy the idea of withheld XP and enforced carousing, so I offer these suggestions:

But... but... the thread is called "XP for gold"?

If you feel the xp is "withheld" rather than something thankful to spend your otherwise worthless gold on, why are you even here?

And carousing isn't "enforced"... remember, donations or training works equally well... if you want "world-building", that's a fine spending target.

I really don't understand, what would you want to do with your money that you feel is disallowed under my proposed scheme...?

The ONLY thing you aren't getting xp for, is suppoed to be items. If you build a church, you get... well, you get your church, and you get the xp. If you "waste" it on blow and hookers, you get... that. And you get the xp. But if you spend your gold on a +3 Sword of Being Better At Fighting, you "only" get the sword and no xp.

(Actually, you still get the xp for looting all that gold. You only don't get the xp twice, since by spending it on a sword, you don't have any gold left to carouse away)

The idea is that in a compressed campaign that follows a string of published modules, world-building is of no immediate value to the characters. And so you gain xp equally if you drink it all up and if you build yourself a castle. There simply isn't any in-game benefits of having that castle, so these rules place no value on it (over partying, that is).

The only option that actually matters in this kind of campaign is bonuses you can carry into the next dungeon, a.k.a. magic items. And so these kinds of expenditures don't give xp.

 

[Joe Liker]

[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] I have to admit, it's really hard for me to wrap my head around that kind of campaign. (Obviously!) I am not a big fan of published adventures, and world building is 100 percent integral to the D&D experience for me.

But if you think this system is a worthwhile experiment, I'd be interested to hear how it goes. I think you've got enough controls in place that nothing terrible will happen.

 

[fuindordm]

What do you want players to prioritize?

If you want them to pull as much treasure out of the dungeon as they can with minimal risk to themselves, it makes sense to award xp for gold and worry about removing the gold later. This works well when the PCs are just vagabond adventurers à la Conan or Fafhrd.

If you want them to complete plot points of a story, then award most of the xp for completing goals: find the hideout, rescue the prisoner, negotiate a treaty... This works well when the PCs are part of an organization or an epic adventure.

Either choice aligns the players' motivations with their characters' motivations and creates a certain mood in the campaign.

The choice that I personally can't quite get my head around is giving the majority of XP for defeating monsters. It makes sense from a gamist perspective in that by defeating monsters the PCs are practicing their skills, so we have this expectation that body count is a good yardstick for increasing skill. But that choice makes the players behave in a way which lacks verisimilitude, to wit seeking out combat after combat even when it is practially certain that eventually they will suffer horrible injuries or die. This is what turns players into murderhobos with no strong ties to the setting--their PCs are already doomed, the players are just trying to make the ride as long as they can.

 

[Joe Liker]

It occurs to me that if you are sticking with published adventures, it might be wise to stick to the XP guidelines given (or assumed) by those adventures.

Also, if I were to write an adventure series, I would not give out tons of gold without also including some interesting things to spend it on. But in my experience, the amount of treasure in many published adventures is rather low.

 

[Thalionalfirin]

If you're using XP for gold and wondering how to remove the gold from characters, just go back to what 1e did and implement training costs.

 

[CapnZapp]

It occurs to me that if you are sticking with published adventures, it might be wise to stick to the XP guidelines given (or assumed) by those adventures.

I think so too, yes...

That is why I am having this conversation: I want - at least until I know what I am doing - to keep the levelling pace, that is, handing out the same amounts of xp that the adventure designer assumes.

But, since I'm - for the purposes of this thread - handing out gold, not xp directly, this would, in the simplest case mean, that for every 1000 xp a hero is getting, he or she will also be getting a thousand gold pieces.

And herein lies my question: what are the 5E design teams expectations on wealth per level?

For instance, a level 5 character will - by this scheme - have amassed a total of 6500 gp give or take. A level 15 character will have collected 165,000 gp during his career, a cool 25,000 gp during his most recent adventure.

Will this make sense? What do published official modules contain?

Should these characters be given more? Less?

Also, if I were to write an adventure series, I would not give out tons of gold without also including some interesting things to spend it on.

My feeling is that this question is mostly left unanswered.

Specifically, I suspect that adventure writers leave this up to the rules system to handle, which it does not do.

In d20, all you had to do as a writer was to find out roughly how much gold a PC was expected to have for his level. In 4E, there were detailed instructions on "treasure parcels".

In 5E, there's this old skool notion that "money always finds its uses". But that is incompatible with a tight focused adventure campaign with little energy spent on downtime. (The downtime is still there, but nobody focuses on it. In many cases, its only function is to make the journey from grubby peasant boy to gleaming interplanar hero take weeks instead of days )

You simply can't just hand out gold, and expect the system to just soak it up, like in previous editions. There is no magic supermarket where you quickly and easily can have players eagerly spending their cash on stuff that is actually useful in the next dungeon. Okay, fine, so there is no Spellmart. But the DMG does not provide any alternatives, it seems, for groups such as mine!

This, writers assuming that gold is always spent without making sure there is something worthwhile to spend it on, is exactly what is happening.

Now, I happen to believe this should not be the adventure writer's task. It would be far simpler if the rules system would provide a number of basic options, from which play groups could choose. This would also mean that any given adventure can find a maximum audience by not catering only to those with a certain preference for how to treat downtime and what to spend gold on.

And that is why we're having this conversation!

To create a reliable money drain that actually gives players something they want. If not magic items, then xp. If not xp, then what?

But in my experience, the amount of treasure in many published adventures is rather low.

I couldn't say whether my character's wealth is high or low for my level. Since there are no wealth by level guidelines in the DMG! *drumroll*

All I know is: I have far more gold than I know what to do with. And I'm only level four.

To me, this is a major headache and a critical failing of the system.

Why is all that gold in the module (Lost Mines of Phandelver) if there's nothing to spend it on?

 

[CapnZapp]

If you're using XP for gold and wondering how to remove the gold from characters, just go back to what 1e did and implement training costs.

I would have thought it obvious that "xp for gold" is that money drain.

Whether you hire a trainer or you spend your gold on other downtime out-of-picture activities doesn't seem particularly important to me.

For a Monk or Paladin perhaps training makes sense. But a Cleric might want to donate to her church. A barbarian or bard might want to hire a palace and have a party.

I'm not judging.

And I'm not keeping track of time.

Just as long as your choice can reasonably complete in time for my next adventure, you can do whatever you like with your money. Build a wizard's tower. Start a cult. Marry a princess.

None of these things matter once you're back in the dungeon, so why would I restrict your choice? The only thing you won't get xp for, is if you spend your money on something that's actually useful during the adventure. A +1 Longsword. Ten scrolls of Raise Dead. A flying carpet. Or, for that matter, a dozen experienced dwarven mercenaries meant to do your job for you...


Anyway, back to my question:

How much gold am I expected to hand out? I'm starting to suspect that a 1:1 xp-to-gp ratio is far exceeding whatever little guidance there is in the DMG...

 

[aramis erak]

If you REALLY want to suck the gold out of them, require them to maintain lifestyles for days or weeks between adventures, use the training option for level up, and make them learn new languages in play. (250 days downtime per language adds up REALLY quick. Especially since you have to spend 1gp/Day... and with the way it's worded, a mean DM can add lifestyle on top of it...)

And make them spend based upon their background and/or any gains (never losses) to standing; failing to do so should give disadvantage in all social circumstances.

 

[Herobizkit]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize in advance if this is repeated information.

Xp-for-Gold is a great idea if you think of this reward system as Xp-For-Gold-Value.

In a barter system, fr'ex, players could stumble across an evil Druid terrorizing local villagers to keep them away from his sheep. PC's defeat the villain and inherit his land and sheep. How much would that be in GP?

There are tons of items that you can shower the PC's with that have a GP value but isn't strictly coin. Gems, art objects, armor and weapons, adventuring gear, and getting into the exotic like magic items, land, holdings, potential followers...