D&D 5E XP for Gold in 5E?

[Anth]

I never realized there were a 0.9 factor between gold and XP in 3rd edition, for instance

Just FYI. The ratio gained was actually 1 to 1, but the characters was supposed to spend 10 % of their gold on living expenses.

 

[CapnZapp]

Just checked my 3.5 books (Specifically: Table 3-2 on page 22 of the PHB, and Table 5-1 on page 135 of the DMG)...

... and the ratio does not at all resemble 1:1

The level 2 expected wealth is indeed 90% of the xp required for level 2 (900 gp and 1000 xp)...

...but this ratio breaks down completely at higher levels:

Level 2: 900 gp and 1000 xp (90%)
Level 5: 9000 gp and 10000 xp (90%)
Level 10: 49000 gp and 45000 xp (109%)
Level 15: 200000 gp and 105000 xp (190%)
Level 20: 760000 gp and 190000 xp (400%)

But that's just a detail. What I want to ask is:

Those of you who have played high-level 5th ed enough to get a feel for how much money such play involves, would you say an 1:1 ratio between gold and xp is...

...about right?
...too little?
...too much?

Myself, since I know the general advice is for the most rare item category to be valued at 500,000 gp (meaning that in some sense, a character is expected to be good for at least that net worth), would perhaps the forum wisdom be to replicate the ratio found in 3rd ed?

That is, a ratio of 1:1 from level one up through level ten, a ratio of 2 gp per xp around level 15, and a ratio of 4 gp per xp at level 20ish?

Assuming this, a 5E campaign would endeavor to hand out...

at level 1: 300 gold
at level 5: 6500 gold (total all levels 1-5)
at level 10: 64,000 gold (total all levels 1-10)
at level 15: 330,000 gold (total all levels 1-15)
at level 20: 1,420,000 gold (total all levels 1-20)


Zapp

PS. Do note, this is only counting gold and valuables. I am not assuming characters will buy all their magic weapons. In fact, a character should do just fine carousing away ALL gold gained, and settling for only the magic items he or she has found.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Considering the lower XP needed for level advancement in 5e I would say proceed with caution or your players will be 20th level in a week or so. (Hyperbole)
1e has always had is detractors due to the ungodly amount of xp needed to level, but that was because the 1gp=1xp rule was not optional when the rules were laid down, but solid core mechanic. So a first level party of 5 to 10 players killing a group of 20 goblins would get approximately 5 xp per goblin and 20 xp of treasure or 120 total xp split 5 to 10 ways or 12 to 24 xp for the encounter. You figure according to modules of the day 30 - 50 encounters per adventure you are looking at some where in the 800-1200 xp per game range.

 

[aramis erak]

Well, mostly I'm asking about specific advice from players comfortable with the gold and XP economies in 5th ed.

Should I keep the simplicity of 1 gp = 1 xp, and possibly have to change either the xp per level table, or the price lists?

Or, can I keep all lists (xp tables and price lists) if I change the gold to xp ratio. And what ratio would that be?

(I never realized there were a 0.9 factor between gold and XP in 3rd edition, for instance)

The bit about SPENDING the gold I'm not so worried about. Whether you build a church, buy wine and women, or spend your time in a dank tower doing expensive experiments doesn't matter

The XP table is already pretty quick in 5E; adding gold-derived will make it faster still. Depending upon how the XP to gold is handled, you'll affect the speed of gain.

I always look at the labor costs and what that implies to the gameworld. Joe Normal makes 1-2sp/day as an unskilled laborer. A skilled laborer is making 1-2gp a day, and a tradesman 1-2.5gp a day (based upon crafting rates and downtime rules). So, that skilled craftsman can have up to 15gp a week to spend on XP; let's use a fairly safe 5gp/week.

Only for "Wasted" (Carousing, temple donations) GP
If 1gp wasted=1xp means he can level up in 300/5=60 weeks. Just over a year to 2nd, and just over 3 to 3rd. Your basic fighter could thus come back, and craft up some stuff, and continue to progress as a fighter by being the village smith.

At 5gp wasted=1xp, it takes 300 weeks for the craftsman to normally level up...6 years.

GP Earned
And if it's gp earned, not wasted, the poorest commoner is elligible to level...
1gp earned=1xp, base level 1sp/day beggar gets level up in 10 years, guildsman in 1 year, and craftsman in 6 months.

It implies that town guards (usually a moderate) should be averaging level 3-5.

At 1/10 that rate, the town guards are typically going to be 1st to second level, but the local lord still gains 1 xp per day. More if they see action.

Your half at obtaining and half at wasting
If you're restricting it to stolen or looted, it's going to mean the local thieves' guild will be high level rogues and fighters, but other non-adventurers won't. The Lord might, if he personally seizes stuff from tax violators.

If it's at 1:1, looting is a major level-up experience.

 

[the Jester]

Well, the old "xp for gold" paradigm of Ye Olde Dayse had a few assumptions built into it.

The first was that combat was to be avoided when possible. Wandering monsters had little, if any, treasure; instead of wasting resources for a few piddling xps, avoid the fight and go for the loot.

The second is that the pcs should be able to choose their danger level. If they want the big ruby behind the sleeping behir, they have to be willing to risk the behir. If they want to avoid that risk, there are goblins with plenty of sps and cps. (Note that this utterly falls apart in a game where the pcs have plot protection against failure or death.)

The third was about the pace of advancement- generally speaking, in early D&D, it was much slower than these days.

So combine these and it works just fine- as long as you don't mind the slow pace of advancement, or as long as your pcs are willing to take the risks involved in getting better loot faster, and as long as you're willing to kill pcs who make errors in judgment when assessing the risks they're going to face.

 

[CapnZapp]

The XP table is already pretty quick in 5E; adding gold-derived will make it faster still. Depending upon how the XP to gold is handled, you'll affect the speed of gain.

I always look at the labor costs and what that implies to the gameworld. Joe Normal makes 1-2sp/day as an unskilled laborer. A skilled laborer is making 1-2gp a day, and a tradesman 1-2.5gp a day (based upon crafting rates and downtime rules). So, that skilled craftsman can have up to 15gp a week to spend on XP; let's use a fairly safe 5gp/week.

Only for "Wasted" (Carousing, temple donations) GP
If 1gp wasted=1xp means he can level up in 300/5=60 weeks. Just over a year to 2nd, and just over 3 to 3rd. Your basic fighter could thus come back, and craft up some stuff, and continue to progress as a fighter by being the village smith.

At 5gp wasted=1xp, it takes 300 weeks for the craftsman to normally level up...6 years.

GP Earned
And if it's gp earned, not wasted, the poorest commoner is elligible to level...
1gp earned=1xp, base level 1sp/day beggar gets level up in 10 years, guildsman in 1 year, and craftsman in 6 months.

It implies that town guards (usually a moderate) should be averaging level 3-5.

At 1/10 that rate, the town guards are typically going to be 1st to second level, but the local lord still gains 1 xp per day. More if they see action.

Your half at obtaining and half at wasting
If you're restricting it to stolen or looted, it's going to mean the local thieves' guild will be high level rogues and fighters, but other non-adventurers won't. The Lord might, if he personally seizes stuff from tax violators.

If it's at 1:1, looting is a major level-up experience.

Thank you for your post, but I am discussing a game where the level speed remains the same. At least, that's my whole question: arriving at the numbers that mean the same level speed as in the rulebook.

Also, a clarification: I'm working under the assumption ordinary xp-for-monsters are REPLACED by xp-for-gold. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Furthermore, every individual monster does not need to carry around "it's xp" as gold in their pocket. I'd have thought that to be obvious, but I guess it's better to state it outright. Just like ordinary encounter and xp guidelines talk about "xp budgets" over a whole level, I will have wandering monsters with poor or no loot and rich monsters with more loot than their xp would otherwise indicate.

So, to reiterate: my question is purely theoretical:

If I just let every monster (on average!) carry around "their xp" as gold in their pocket, the level speed will obviously stay the same (more or less).

But then characters will gain as many gold as the xp for level indicates.

And this is my question:

Is that a good fit?

The 5E DMG does not answer this important question, since it reportedly does not provide Wealth by Level guidelines.

Compare to 3E, where it would seem appropriate to place 75 gold in the pocket of a monster worth 75 xp, but where somewhere around level 10 this guideline breaks down.

(I'd like to know what the xp to gold ratio should be in a purely standard by-the-book 5E campaign before I can make my final decisions for my own campaign. Thanks.

Obviously I will only put 35 or 40 gold in the 75 xp monster's pocket, since I plan to award xp possibly twice for every gold; first when that gold piece is looted, then again when (and if) it is "caroused away".

With the intention that characters that buy lots of magic items level a bit slower, while characters that rely on found items only level up a bit faster.

Again, as a reminder: there will be no standard xp for defeating monsters, there will only be the xp you get for taking their stuff, and possibly the same amount of xp again if you spend it on carousing (partying, training, donating, building or whatever the player feels is suitable for his or her character))

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, the old "xp for gold" paradigm of Ye Olde Dayse had a few assumptions built into it.

The first was that combat was to be avoided when possible. Wandering monsters had little, if any, treasure; instead of wasting resources for a few piddling xps, avoid the fight and go for the loot.

The second is that the pcs should be able to choose their danger level. If they want the big ruby behind the sleeping behir, they have to be willing to risk the behir. If they want to avoid that risk, there are goblins with plenty of sps and cps. (Note that this utterly falls apart in a game where the pcs have plot protection against failure or death.)

The third was about the pace of advancement- generally speaking, in early D&D, it was much slower than these days.

So combine these and it works just fine- as long as you don't mind the slow pace of advancement, or as long as your pcs are willing to take the risks involved in getting better loot faster, and as long as you're willing to kill pcs who make errors in judgment when assessing the risks they're going to face.

Yes.

I still need to know how much gold a character is expected to have at a certain level though.

After you tell me this and we have that discussed and done, then I can adjust my pace and make levelling slower if that's what I want

 

[CapnZapp]

If I just let every monster (on average!) carry around "their xp" as gold in their pocket, the level speed will obviously stay the same (more or less).

But then characters will gain as many gold as the xp for level indicates.

And this is my question:

Is that a good fit?

As I were saying

On the other hand, if the wealth by level numbers deviate considerably from the xp per level numbers, perhaps the easiest solution would instead be to replace the xp-per-level table with the numbers from the wealth-per-level table?

(I know the DMG is said not to have any such wealth-by-level table, but that's what I'm hoping this discussion will lead to)

I mean that instead of trying to arrive at a xp-to-gp ratio that might well change between levels (as it apparently does in 3E), why not simply chuck out the xp table and replace it with the numbers from the wealth by level table?

This way you most definitely will gain just the right amount of cash just as you reach the appropriate level

Do note: yes, I am aware I'm expecting most characters to carouse away their wealth. This should not be a major problem since magic items are much less obligatory in 5E than in previous editions.

I still want to arrive at the right numbers though, since when a character do decide to save up for a nice item, I want the loot to automatically provide him with the correct purchasing power for his or her level.

Thank you for all insights.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

I think I stated this elsewhere, but I don't support the GP=XP concept. GP, like XP, is a reward which can be used to improve your character with better gear. Getting XP for GP is like double dipping rewards. I award XP for defeating Monsters and achieving Objectives (and at one time, Roleplaying, but Inspiration has taken that over nicely).

 

[the Jester]

The thing is, 5e realy doesn't seem to have an expected wealth by level. I am pretty sure that it's a matter of taste.

Though you could average the random treasure results over time... but I'd honestly just play it by ear. Figure how fast you want the pcs to advance and set the treasure rate and xp/gp rate based on that.